[danglerb]

Don't forget company C puts in whatever "universal" cap is in the truck, still charges two bills, and tells the HO the whole system really needs to be replaced for safety reasons.

 

[vwl]

Its not about the price!!!

Price is the end result of you doing your best to meet the needs and wants of your client.

Hence ballparking the price or giving the client a range of price is not doing your best to listen, listen, listen. If they are asking for a price over the phone that usually means that have a price and are shopping to be sure they are not paying to much for they have already bought before calling you!

Don't fall in the trap.

A Doctor would be under malpractic charges if he did not listen, listen, listen. Before he told the patient what it was going to cost to fix up his health.

Hence no Details no prices over the phone!

 

[ARPA]

Re: Its not about the price!!!

Price is the end result of you doing your best to meet the needs and wants of your client.

Hence ballparking the price or giving the client a range of price is not doing your best to listen, listen, listen. If they are asking for a price over the phone that usually means that have a price and are shopping to be sure they are not paying to much for they have already bought before calling you!

Don't fall in the trap.

A Doctor would be under malpractic charges if he did not listen, listen, listen. Before he told the patient what it was going to cost to fix up his health.

Hence no Details no prices over the phone!

Welcome to HVAC-TALK.
Your first post, and IMO, right on the money.
The only price given over the phone is the diagnostic charge.

 

[Mr Bill]

Pricing is based mainly on customer attitude and jobsite risk.

Spoken like a true Texan, man Steve I thought I was the only one in Texas that priced according to attitude.

 

[aurora]

Ballpark prices are meaningless. The only reliable and not misleading way for someone to get an idea of price is to get 3 or more estimates from contractors in his area who are willing and able to install a system in the very specific and unique circumstances of each job. Most experienced and responsible contractors know better than to give estimates over the phone so how and why would those same contractors dispense pricing information in this forum?

 

[nancerk]

thanks for the "priceless" discussion

As I said, this forum is fantastic. I was in education for 25 years before I woke up and went to work for a fine AC company.
I've much to learn. When I brought up the pricing question, I was NOT questioning the wisdom of keeping prices out of these discussions. I was referring to the times I've spent with customers in the store, looking at me and saying, "You can't give me a ballpark figure? (Implication: You are dumb or you or lying or you are both!) And I say, "One of our specialists has to evaluate your house's condition and requirements. After all, the estimate costs you nothing." "Yes, I know that installation prices may vary, " says the customer, "BUT, what does this or that unit cost, regardless of installation expenses? Surely you can tell me that?" And I don't tell them, since I've been told not to, and I guess that's my question. Is it simply because, once I say, unit X costs Y, then that leaves room open for a competitor --who may well
make up for his discount by shortchanging the install--to say, "Well, well, I'll sell you that unit for Y - 500, or whatever.

 

[hearthman]

legal issue

Probably would violate Federal Anti-Trust Guidelines, just like we can't talk prices at trade shows and conventions.

 

[jeffreygjensen]

I have been pricing a furnace and ducting replacing for an 1100 square foot bungalow in Oakland, California (San Francisco Bay Area). What I find interesting is that after getting six bids, not one installer has broken down their bid in terms of the price of the materials and the price of labor/installation. When I asked one installer to do so he refused. He even gave me some hocus pocus that I did not need to know and that the State of California requires him to give a complete project cost. I responded that the law does not preclude him from breaking down his bid. Why are HVAC contractors in the SF Bay Area unwilling to break down the specifics of their bid. As a consumer, this makes it difficult to compare apples to apples and it makes it appear as if there is collusion among the HVAC contractors to rig prices.

 

[xv80satisfiedcust]

I suppose this could be in the Jokes forum.

Then again you might be the pain in the ass biter customer that disagrees with everything and insists on running the show from beginning to end. Everything is run down: electrical dangers all around, a hole in your water hose, cat-pissed carpet, dog pissed condensor, dog turds all around the condensing unit, hvac filter MISSING, and moldy condensate lines. The customer has allergies (surprise !!!) can we afford a media filter? Your [nasty ass, mosquito-larvae-infested, missing-tooth swamp-rat snake-infested] uninsulated warped particle board mobile home dwelling with high weed vines tangled in your condenser fins, stinking laundry, spoiled food, burned-out light bulbs, deferred maintenance tenant of a late on your bills slumlord home-warranty company emergency-free-estimate-on-the-weekend customer.

Now, of course, the well dressed, NATE certified tech shows up and provides the appropriate "bad customer" markup, whereupon the home-warranty company seeks a cheaper opinion.

Meanwhile, across town in the upscale danglerb development, we have another situation. The HVAC company that usually services the mobile home park has shown up at danglerb's to do a classic bait and switch. The contract was printed up with a Bryant unit. In the fine print, it says "subject to availability, or internet special". And there is another clause. It says that the labor may be subcontracted. Danglerb is naturally irritated and the HVAC guy gets talked into doing the job on the side and "rip" there goes the written contract AND the warranty. Later, the condo association asks for a copy of the (permit????).

Ok danglerb, we know you wouldn't do this, but with your discussion of moonlight HVAC-ers, I couldn't resist.

 

[danglerb]

So the question is how do you turn a price shopper into a good customer?

We sell reliable home comfort, not equipment.

Quoting a price, even a price range without knowing the actual work and equipment required is unprofessional, its bad for the HVAC trade, bad for the customer, and we won't be a part of it.

80% of homes have incorrectly sized AC units, and many people don't know this, but too large of a system not only wastes energy and money, it provides less comfort and humidity control. We carefully inspect your home and calculate the best system to give you year round comfort at the lowest cost. Isn't that worth a few minutes of your time for years improved air quality?

If you need help being evasive and slimey listen to a few old Clinton press conferences.

 

[danglerb]

I have been pricing a furnace and ducting replacing for an 1100 square foot bungalow in Oakland, California (San Francisco Bay Area). What I find interesting is that after getting six bids, not one installer has broken down their bid in terms of the price of the materials and the price of labor/installation. When I asked one installer to do so he refused. He even gave me some hocus pocus that I did not need to know and that the State of California requires him to give a complete project cost. I responded that the law does not preclude him from breaking down his bid. Why are HVAC contractors in the SF Bay Area unwilling to break down the specifics of their bid. As a consumer, this makes it difficult to compare apples to apples and it makes it appear as if there is collusion among the HVAC contractors to rig prices.

There probably is collusion, now what?

Its not just your area, and there are reasons good and bad, but you best learn to be happy with a complete list of major items including model numbers and a installed total, cause that is the best your are going to be getting.

You are NOT buying AC equipment, you are buying the installed product and service related to that installation, and that is the ONLY way its available to the public.

 

[nancerk]

I have been pricing a furnace and ducting replacing for an 1100 square foot bungalow in Oakland, California (San Francisco Bay Area). What I find interesting is that after getting six bids, not one installer has broken down their bid in terms of the price of the materials and the price of labor/installation. When I asked one installer to do so he refused. He even gave me some hocus pocus that I did not need to know and that the State of California requires him to give a complete project cost. I responded that the law does not preclude him from breaking down his bid. Why are HVAC contractors in the SF Bay Area unwilling to break down the specifics of their bid. As a consumer, this makes it difficult to compare apples to apples and it makes it appear as if there is collusion among the HVAC contractors to rig prices.

There probably is collusion, now what?

Its not just your area, and there are reasons good and bad, but you best learn to be happy with a complete list of major items including model numbers and a installed total, cause that is the best your are going to be getting.

You are NOT buying AC equipment, you are buying the installed product and service related to that installation, and that is the ONLY way its available to the public.

These two quotes sort of sum up the situation. One asks, "Why don't you....?" and the other responds, "We just don't." That leaves my to hypotesize, so here's my best shot: 1) Any hint of unit cost might lead to getting unethically outbidded by a moonlighting H-VACer; 2) They'll want to "bargain" on the what we're charging them on the unit, ala the car-buying process.

Speaking of cars, I think you can see in that business a model which buyers expect from us. The cost of everything is laid out on the sticker--supposedly--and then you wheel and deal to bring the overall cost down. As contractors, HVAC dealers would rather compete in a "pure" bidding process. Right?

 

[browntigerus]

Yeap, yeap. yeap....

Prices different, jobs different, different cost to dealers... All may be true ( I signed up as a dealer too. Haven't sold one unit yet )...

Sooo, what possible excuse you guys can come up with to justify not talking about price paid for installed equipment in the area ....

Besides, I keep thinking about a looney in a pro forum who claims to charge 3G to replace A coil.

 

[hillbilly tech]

Past experience and references are the key,they will make you and break you,if your price is reasonable and the folks like ya and know someone that has delt with you and had a hvac system put in and does its thing without much badluck chances are you will get the job,people are very untrust worthy after they have had bad deals out of hvac companys,and it happens no matter how good ya are.Im not the best but when i fumble i eat the cost,kinda hard to swallow but pays off in the long run,and deep down people know when they are getting screwed or not in the long run.Treat people like you want to be treated and that will take you farther than anything.

 

[twisterbret]

From a homeowners point of view, when I was looking to replace my old AC and furnace, I just didn't have a clue as to what kind of costs were involved. I don't have 5000 to 10,000 hanging around so I need to know how much to save and how long it will take to reach my goal. For all I know AC could have been 1500.00 installed. (I wish)

 

[tom21769]

I have been pricing a furnace and ducting replacing for an 1100 square foot bungalow in Oakland, California (San Francisco Bay Area). What I find interesting is that after getting six bids, not one installer has broken down their bid in terms of the price of the materials and the price of labor/installation.

It's definitely not just your area. Here on the east coast, I had a number of bids,too. Just as you say, not one broke it down into materials and labor. Not only that, I had to pull teeth to get details about what the cost would include beyond make and model number of the HeatPump / Fan Coil. The highest bidder told me he charged more because his price included a new pad, snow legs, line set, and exterior disconnect. But the company I went with (for $2K less) included all those things, and as far as I can tell did a great job. It may have been luck, because from the offers I had now idea if the one was really selling me $2k more value or if the other was just more efficient at turning a profit from bigger volumes. I could not find equipment price information ANYWHERE on the Internet except for one Canadian direct sales vendor.

I think I understand what quality HVAC professionals are up against. One thing I'd like to see is some kind of uniform bidding standard. Anyone who adopted it would commit to itemizing all included materials and services according to a standardized job list. A vendor would be free to adopt this standard or not. The consumer would be equally free to buy only from a vendor who did.

 

[wptski]

I have been pricing a furnace and ducting replacing for an 1100 square foot bungalow in Oakland, California (San Francisco Bay Area). What I find interesting is that after getting six bids, not one installer has broken down their bid in terms of the price of the materials and the price of labor/installation. When I asked one installer to do so he refused. He even gave me some hocus pocus that I did not need to know and that the State of California requires him to give a complete project cost. I responded that the law does not preclude him from breaking down his bid. Why are HVAC contractors in the SF Bay Area unwilling to break down the specifics of their bid. As a consumer, this makes it difficult to compare apples to apples and it makes it appear as if there is collusion among the HVAC contractors to rig prices.

Yeah! What happened to good old parts & labor costs?

Are there any other type of contractors that won't explain the breakdown of the total job?

 

[danglerb]

If you want price information go to froogle.google.com and search using a keyword set like, 3 ton 14 seer and in 10 min you will have a good idea of the cost of at least a Goodman system delivered to your door including tax and shipping. Not just the major parts, but a complete install kit with pad, lineset, and a DVD to show you how to install it.

All the other brands hide the distributer prices, but they seem to be around 50% higher than the Goodman price. Typically a dealer adds 30% markup to that for delivery <**sarcasm**>.

Does that help a consumer? Its a running joke here, buy the equipment off the net, or Ebay, and find some maintainance guy with a gas license to borrow tools from work and do the hookup at night for cash. If I had five rental houses I wouldn't even be talking here about it. As a normal home owner, that route did not save enough money to compensate for the increased risk* and lack of service and support after the sale.

Many people don't understand what a dealer brings to the table until they have a problem, and find out the installing dealer is responsible for most of the practical details of any warranty service. That 30% delivery charge is an authorized dealer assuming responsiblity for support as advertised by the brand, for keeping spare parts on the trucks, for training techs on how that specific model should be installed and maintained.

I really am a cheap guy, but sometimes the cost isn't low enough to make a cheap choice a good value.

**risk**
One dose of the risks associated with having an unlicensed contractor work on your house can last a lifetime.

 

[cissado]

I can see why the pricing rule is in effect and can respect that. This site is full of great information that is really like no place else. I'll take it.


BUT.... Having hear of the Trane Clean effects being very "pricey" and "expensive", etc... I didn't consider it for my systems, but somehow the price came out a while ago and I said to myself "Hmmm, that's not bad, had I known that, I wouldn't have bothered with an alternate system and would have purchased the Trane CE.." So, that is just an example of a lost sale because I did not know a price beforehand.

Sometimes numbers help make a decision if you're on the fence.


Sure I could have gotten estimates, but a filter for me is not an absolute neccessity, so price would have been an issue. I'd hate to get a free estimate only to tell the guy "No thanks" after hearing the price. That is both unfair to him and me. Just a waste of time IMO.

 

[wptski]

I can see why the pricing rule is in effect and can respect that. This site is full of great information that is really like no place else. I'll take it.


BUT.... Having hear of the Trane Clean effects being very "pricey" and "expensive", etc... I didn't consider it for my systems, but somehow the price came out a while ago and I said to myself "Hmmm, that's not bad, had I known that, I wouldn't have bothered with an alternate system and would have purchased the Trane CE.." So, that is just an example of a lost sale because I did not know a price beforehand.

Sometimes numbers help make a decision if you're on the fence.


Sure I could have gotten estimates, but a filter for me is not an absolute neccessity, so price would have been an issue. I'd hate to get a free estimate only to tell the guy "No thanks" after hearing the price. That is both unfair to him and me. Just a waste of time IMO.

If contractors won't list the cost of the parts, what's wrong with asking the price of the whole job with unit A, B, C or D??