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MiniMe4HVAC

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
The AC coil is placed just above my heat exchanged
My installer quoted me a bigger AC coil. What could be wrong with the existing one?
Note: he did not open the furnace to look at it so how could he guess that the AC coil is finished? He is not going to replace the AC. The AC unit is much newer than the furnace (I can't give you a year but it was certainly installed well after the furnace was)
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Hi guys

Sorry for the delay...very busy day at work
I did ask him why but his answer did not make sense to me.

He indicated my AC coil as the reason why my furnace was overheating.
He said that the AC coild should have been bigger. That does not make sense to me
A smaller AC coil leaves more space around it so that the air that comes from the blower and goes around the heat exchanger could easier go upward (highboy furnace) and reach the ducts.
Here is a schematic representation, the blue roof above the heat exchanger is how I believe the AC coil is positioned.
If that is the case then the bigger the AC coil the more it blocks the warm air path.

Image


PS: my blower is direct drive and the cold air enters the furnace on the right side not on the left side
I have a condensing furnace (Olsen Duomatic Ultramax II)
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Ok, let's start from the beginning.
The evaporator, wether cased or uncased, is the first part of the duct system.
It's not designed to bypass air around the coil. How are you ever to get any efficiency out of your air conditioner if your only running a partial amount of air though the coil? While there is leakage around the case/duct and coil, the vast majority of discharge air runs though the coil.
The one big item that I've asked several times in all your threads, where is the load sizing??? I've never in my entire career told someone they just need a bigger coil so more air can pass through.
What your getting yourself into is a mismatched nightmare.
You used automotive references in your other thread, so I'll stick to that-
I take my car to Johnny's 15 minute service shop for an oil change. Being the average car owner, I don't really know what oil it takes. They tell me they don't have any literature on what oil my car takes, and ask me what I want them to put in. I just point to the computer screen and tell them that one. Now, will it lubricate my engine? Yup, most likely. But the car isn't going to run anywhere near as long or efficient as if the proper oil was used. Hell, the engine might even blow up.
The same thing is happening here with your furnace. Some guesstimating is going on in the hopes you'll have an operating system in the end.
You should have a hard copy of your homes needs in terms of heat gain, loss, and the ducting requirements to move said energy.
Now, I saw in your other post your furnace is putting out a discharge temp of almost 170*, perhaps beyond that since you were using an inferred gun to measure the duct.
You need to figure out why your not moving air, or even if your ducts are anywhere near correct, or you will cause a quick death to new equipment.
I will have everything measured this weekend
I finished reading the relevant chapters from the Audel HAVAC fundamentals and now I understand better where to look and what to look for
I will have to measure the following:
-manifold pressure -I don;t have a hygrometer but they say you can calculate the pressure by looking at the gas company's watch installed in opr outside of your home and calculate how much gas flows
-temperature rise-
-inspect the AC coil again, this time looking to the bottom side,Apparently I looked at the top side when I did that myself.
-inspect the heat exchanger
-do the Manual J,D etc
-inspect the air ducts to see if there is any air block


None of these were done by my installer and I believe he simply quoted me something to replace the existing unit

Regarding the temperature measurements: I double checked the first measurement with a regular thermometer
Regarding the size of the coil: that should affect the AC performance (if it is undersized) but it should not be a problem for the furnace!!
He indicated that the AC coil is too small ...which might be true but that might be because the AC unit that is outside my house is small too. I would preffer to change/deal with the AC issue when the time comes...
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
I suspect that inside there is this plate (The brown) that pivots around its longitudinal axis
You can see the lever on the second picture below. I suspect that that lever moved into vertical position allows the air to go around the AC coil which actually might cause the overheating of the front panel. The back side is not overheating.
This all leads to one thing; clogged AC coil

Image


Image
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
That's an uncased coil, which means that plate could or couldn't be there, or could be inoperative as the coil is field wrapped. I haven't seen one of those in years. If you have a newer outdoor unit, your defiantly not getting the rated SEER out of it with that old thing.
Are you still trying to replace your furnace, or trying to fix this one? I'm just a little confused with all these different threads and some conflicting info you've given.
Did you assume that it is an uncased coil based on my drawing or based on the picture that I posted
The drawing is just an assumption, I am not clear yet on what my AC coil looks like

I saw one of these in a book and I assumed that more or less they are all the same
Image



Here is my problem
I would like to replace the furnace and have something done properly. I am now questioning every item that he put on his quote.
As much as I liked to believe that I can trust this guy it looks like I can't. The more I read about the whole thing the less I trust the guy.
I postponed the installation till Dec when I will get a forced break (the client that I am working for has an end of the year freeze period).
I hope to either find a new installer or to learn what I need to force this guy do a proper job.
The problem is that I will have to survive till then.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
To expand on what 54regcab is getting at, is the outdoor unit newer than the indoor coil? If so, maybe that's what your contractor was talking about. Newer systems need larger coils (both inside and outside) than older units did. It might be obvious to the tech that the condenser is 13 SEER or higher, and the evaporator doesn't match it. If this is the case, you might indeed need a larger evaporator to match the outdoor unit.

Also, the tech might be making an educated guess that your evaporator is dirty, which could be what's causing your furnace to overheat. He might want to pull your old, dirty, undersized evaporator and replace it with a new, clean, properly matched one. It might not be worth the hassle for him to pump down your system, cut out and remove your old coil, take it somewhere to clean it, and then reinstall it. Especially if it's not a matched unit. Its a lot of work to do all of that. Once you get the old evaporator out, it might not cost that much more to replace it with a new one vs. cleaning the old one and reinstalling it.

This is just a guess as to what might be going on. I really don't know if this was your tech's thought process or not. Good luck.
I am going to check tomorrow the AC unit.
BTW does this have to be "winterized" in any way?

Why can't he clean the unit in place once he removed the underneath furnace?
He did not look at the AC unit that was outside
He arrived at my house at 8PM, it was dark and I am sure he could not see it.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
You can tell it is uncased by the picture you put up. A cased coil will come with a box around it made out of sheet metal that's painted up to match your furnace and will look something like this...
Image


The only winterizing that should need to be done is to make sure the heat works.

Yes, the evaporator should be easier to clean once the furnace is removed, however it still might be a good idea to get a new evaporator. Maybe the old evaporator is too small to properly fit on top of the furnace that they want to sell you. If its too small, they will need to block some of the airflow so that its all directed through the coil, or else the A/C won't work right. If they have to block some of the airflow, then the furnace could overheat. A new cased coil from the manufacturer of the furnace would fit perfectly on top of your new furnace, and then they wouldn't have to worry about it. Maybe that's why the installer wants to sell you a bigger coil.
thanks for the reply
Everything makes sense.
I measured everything this morning, including some temperatures
I will put everything together and I will post is here

Yes what you are saying about the new AC coil makes sense.

I was quoted a Payne Model # PG95XAT42060B with a 2 ton R22 coil
 
Discussion starter · #21 ·
To be honest with you I would gladly pay to have the AC air flow (and the AC coil) and the Furnace air flow separated and have a dumper or something like this switch the paths depending on the season
I hate this mess ... the furnace does not work because the AC coil is clogged

Here is a question: I did not notice that the AC was not really working although we did not use it much, it was not a very hot summer and we do not like the AC in general. So I am wondering, if the damn thing is so clogged why wasn't the AC faulting? We did not live much in the house, we just bought it this summer
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Yeah the blue staff on the return path is a disaffected electronic air filter.
I missed to represent the connection at the bottom between the cold air column and the blower ...the latest version of that file has that in case you wonder
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
37c/67f temp rise isn't unusual for an older furnace. If you are changing the furnace you will need to improve airflow and/or downsize the furnace. Newer furnaces run closer to 50f rise. The good news most furnaces are grossly oversized so downsizing shouldn't be an issue.
45F-75F seems to be the limits for this furnace. See the picture below

I am a little worried about the temperatures on the back side and front side of the furnace but I don't think that they are extremely hot.
Probably it is normal to have elevated temperatures at the level where the heat exchangers are
I will have to see why the heck the air flow is so low in the basement

Image
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
At 145F (67C) you are well below the limit of 210, and still under the max discharge temp of 175F, depending on your return air temp, the 145 is very likely to be well within the (45-75) temp rise on the data plate.
I think that the 200F limit is a limit acceptable in the heat exchange area
In the fan & limit zone there are a couple of areas that are somewhere around 75C (see the area marked below)
Yes the system in vintage but my impression is that it could be fixed to work till spring. Probably the electrical part will die before the mechanical part, the heat exchanger seems to be made of steel and it seems very resistent.
It was my impression that the guy did not want to fix it, he was afraid that I won't replace it in April as I discussed with him
He insisted that it can not be fixed. I told him that I want to see what what he does when he is installing the new furnace and he did not seem to like the idea of me being around ... I might be getting paranoid here but common sense tells me that this is not so complicated. I will have more info tomorrow after I check the AC coil and I try to sort out the gas pressure problem. This is strange, with a reduced flow of gas the system seems to be in normal prameters.

I am just curious, for a system of like this, an an around 2000sqft would it be normal to take like 1h to rise the temperature from 18C to 21.5C
I guess that with lower gas pressure it should just take longer to rise the temperature.

Image
 
Discussion starter · #41 ·
With a 67f temp rise you are only within 8f of max. Plenum limit switch could be getting to 210f due to radiant heat from the heat exchanger. Are the burners staying lit the whole hour your house is warming from 18c to 21.5c. A furnace tripping limit will allow he blower to run the whole time blowing warm air and the homeowner may not realize the burners are cycling. Watch it for 10-15 minutes and verify the burners do not shut off. Clock the gas meter to verify furnace is burning the correct amount of gas. In US measurements seconds for the 1cuft dial to turn divided by 3600 is your btu/hr in thousands. 3600/70k BTU = 51 seconds for the 1cuft dial to turn one revolution.
I am going to clock the meter this morning
I am now inspecting the AC coil

No the burners do not cycle anymore. There were at that point a while ago. Now they are fine.
They were short cycling but I fixed that by reducing the gas pressure. I am going to find out soon if the gas pressure was OK or not
 
Discussion starter · #43 ·
AC coils can "look clean" but be clogged deep inside the fins. Especially possible is somebody has recently "cleaned the coil" without pulling it. Static pressure test is the only way to know for sure.

Leave the gas pressure ALONE unless you have the proper equipment and expertise to set it correctly. You can easily cause more harm than good by setting it wrong. Clocking the meter is just a quick check to see if fuel consumption is close to spec, it does not verify correct gas pressure.
Stay tuned I am going to post some scary **** soon
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Nope ...I learned CAD by myself and I am learning the basics about HVAC now. The renderings are made in Sketchup Pro, a light version of Autocad, user friendly...so I am not as smart as you believe :)
I am an IT guy :) but I attended an east european top university in my ex communist country and those bastards wanted to make an Einstein out of each one of us so I got into the habit to learn things by myself as I am doing it with my furnace right now.


BTW I got to access the AC coil and the secondary heat exchanger coil.
Man! ..

Here are the horror pictures

This is the AC coil
Image

This is the Secondary heat exchanger coil
Image
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
So now it is clear that mu installer did not want to help me
The furnace is dirty and I have to clean it up.
What is the best way to clean these coils

I am thinking about vacuum first for a rough cleaning
Next I would use one of these if you guys are telling me that is right
Image

and the last step would be to vacuum it again
 
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