From what I've seen and heard, there is none that you can just top off with other than R22.

All the R22 replacements you have to change the filter drier, and anything with a o-ring on it. Plus reclaim all the refrigerant that is in the system.

I have used MO99 on 1 refrigeration (walk-in cooler), 6 RTU AC systems.

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Topping off as in mixing the refrigerant? Hell I've never knew of any refrigerant we could mix in the field but some of the old dogs may know otherwise.

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Manufacturers said not to top 12 with hot shot. Been doing it for years with no problems. Have not used any of the 22 alts but as soon as the boss buys me a jug I'm gonna try it on my old package unit. They us a different oil but if it ducked it up I can scrap it so its win win.

 

Just read some the specs on alternative replacements for R22...
the alternatives maybe topped off after the old R22 charge has been replaced.

I do believe this is what my colleague was getting at.

 

Just read some the specs on alternative replacements for R22...
the alternatives maybe topped off after the old R22 charge has been replaced.

.I do believe this is what my colleague was getting at

Thanks for all the replies.

Never mixed refrigerant in my entire career Dont intend to start.

But since R22 hit the $500 mark it is now time to say
good bye to it and decide on a alternative.

 

Bottom line is you can't mix them.
What refrigerant would you have after you'd Recovered?

 

thats easy you take 22 and multiply by 407 then divide by the ounces of 407 you charged.

 

I just attended a Dupont refrigerant seminar. You can not mix. You can top off M099,a certain percent. I can't remember what percent (m099) off the top of my head.

 

All of the "correct" answers have been given already, however, if you are in a large bind (or are just a lazy hack), I doubt anything bad would happen if you mix refrigerants in small amounts, as long as the p-t charts are close for both of them. The system would probably work just fine.

The problem is, I believe this is against the law according to the EPA. Also, it creates an issue when it comes time to turn in the used refrigerant mixture, since the reclaim company will likely have to destroy it and will charge you a lot of money to do so. This means that if you mix the refrigerants, and the next guy unknowingly recovers it and tries to turn it in, he will get a not so nice surprise. Also, it could cause warranty issues if the compressor manufacturer finds out.

 

Spoken like a true hack.:grin2: LOL. Sorry just kidding, couldn't resist. Your right though if the P-t charts are close and you use only a little (since the meniral oil would mix well with replacement).

And one more thing, the next guy who got stuck with the "mixed" frigerant might want to turn you in also. Thank you, thank you very much

 

This has been a misconception since the R-12 phaseout.

To my knowledge, there has never been a refrigerant that you can "drop-in" on top of a phased-out refrigerant.

The ONLY correct way is to recover, evacuate and recharge with new refrigerant.

Once you start mixing your own refrigerants, you are operating outside of manufacturer's guidelines and, if anything really bad happens, you could be on the hook for it legally.

Do it right and walk away confident.

 

Have your customers call me I have plenty of it and plan on being stingy with virgin and recycling it for my customers when it doesnt have to be totally replaced. Yes I can even clean up burned out stuff.

 

:yes:

 

Great, now I'm going to have nightmares about getting a call from our reclaimer informing us that they will be charging us for destroying 200# of mixed R-22, instead of cutting us a check for $1200.

 

With all your investments into electronic equipment mark go ahead and get a neutronics identifier.

 

the new prices on r22 make new 410 equipment sell easier

 

My thoughts.

It is time to retire R-22 and the equipment which uses it.

IMO a pro would be doing the customer a favor by upgrading them to 410... there is more value to the customer in a new 410 system with a parts warranty.

 

Just please be carefull of capicty reduction when you don't use R22

 

Or, maybe more important, inform the customer!

 

Dupont has R-22 to ISCEON M099 retrofit guidelines located on their website. It appears to have all the answers to any questions, but as noted by others above I don't think mixing any freons are recamended.

 

Originally Posted by mark beiser
Great, now I'm going to have nightmares about getting a call from our reclaimer informing us that they will be charging us for destroying 200# of mixed R-22, instead of cutting us a check for $1200.



Exactly what I was about to post.

 

That is a great point. Let the customer make that decision

 

This is very true. 410 is a upgrade

 

From the scuttlebutt I hear at the supply house, their sales of MO99 have understandably increased dramatically, however according to the counter guys, there's reportedly a significant percentage of techs who openly admit...or even brag...about topping off with MO99 in R22 systems.

 

e

Do you think I could market my services to test the purity of r22 as a pass / fail type basis in my area ....basically would anyone care enough ?

 

NU 22 is a " drop in" it's 40....something. mfg. is helpful. They have lots of "cool" stuff. It is a blend. someone earlier said small amounts may work if p/t close... I sorta agree. I would pull 22. leak test evacuate etc.then use NU 22

my 2 cents

 

Miami cooling What is the refrigerant your using for a replacement.

 

This isn't about topping off R22, but it does pertain to the side discussion about recovering R22 mixed with another refrigerant.

While I'm no fan of leak sealers, I found that NuCalgon's Easy Seal uses 2 oz of a hyrocarbon as a propellant, so it may result in a failed recovered refrigerant ID test.

BTW...Cliplight's Superseal doesn't use a propellant.

http://johnstonesupply9.com/docs/EASYSEAL NUCALGON.pdf

 

r22a is explosive I don't think I would use that on anything.

 

Don't Forget

Will the manufacturer warrantee the compressor with that replacement refrigerant?

Not sure if they care though, they don't even want them back any more. Just give them the Serial # and they get you a new one.

 

Im going to be using dupont iceon mo99 (R438A) for retrofitting systems that have mineral oil. It has the lowest capacity loss of all of them aprox 5 to 10%. I will also be buying United refrigerations own private brand Thermal Zone condensing units, which is basiclly a rheem product. They are offering those units with polyoester oil. So I can then use R407c as my refrigerant. It is the closest to R22 with the least capacity loss.

Also what will be the going rate this season for R22?
We will be charging $70.00 per pound.

 

let me see if I have this right ,the 22 manufacturers probably are selling 22 jugs to dist for maybe 250 the dist sell it to us for about 500 we sell a jug to our customers for about 2000,wow no wonder nobody trusts us.

 

let me see if I have this right ,the 22 manufacturers probably are selling 22 jugs to dist for maybe 250 the dist sell it to us for about 500 we sell a jug to our customers for about 2000,wow no wonder nobody trusts us.

Should'a gone in on a few skids of 22 a couple years back...but some guys were just hoping the phase out would go away and the price would come down.

Now everybody is paying the price.

 

POE oil is compatible with all refrigerants, so you should be ok there.

 

I am looking for a cheaper alternative as well. I just have a problem with paying 4 or 5 hundred bucks for a cylinder of R-22. As far as selling new R-410 units goes. We've been doing that as well, But we've had a fairly large call back rate on those units. Mostly all leaks and when we finally find them they usually wind up being the evap coil. It does seem fairly limited to package units for some reason though. We put a new gas pack in for a lady about this time of year in 2010. It didn't even make it through the first season before we were back out there looking for a leak. Finally found the leak and replaced the evap coil under warranty in the fall of 2011. We had to go back out there a couple of weeks ago and charge it up again. She's probably got over $1000.00 just in labor and gas since we installed it. How are we supposed to sell that to a widow on a fixed income?