I have a Hill Phoenix R22 low temp. Rack with a suction header target of -25 and 70* Liquid. My question is in regards to the Liquid Receiver! I would like to know the complete theory of operation of this (SURGE) set up! I have two drop legs with check valves that tee together then go to a tee that goes to the inlet of the receiver and the straight side of the tee goes on to a solenoid then to the filter/dryer and sight glass then to the liquid header. Obviously the receiver is being bypassed! What determines when this bypass occurs and what are the set points for the bypass solenoid? Is it energized or deenergized for bypass and is the solenoid the only thing that determines weather system is in bypass or not? What is the word SURGE mean? What should the receiver level be when not in reclaim or any systems in defrost?
Surge Receiver
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I have a Hill Phoenix R22 low temp. Rack with a suction header target of -25 and 70* Liquid. My question is in regards to the Liquid Receiver! I would like to know the complete theory of operation of this (SURGE) set up! I have two drop legs with check valves that tee together then go to a tee that goes to the inlet of the receiver and the straight side of the tee goes on to a solenoid then to the filter/dryer and sight glass then to the liquid header. Obviously the receiver is being bypassed! What determines when this bypass occurs and what are the set points for the bypass solenoid? Is it energized or deenergized for bypass and is the solenoid the only thing that determines weather system is in bypass or not? What is the word SURGE mean? What should the receiver level be when not in reclaim or any systems in defrost?
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I'm not super familiar with these systems, but I can give you a thumbnail sketch.
Surge receiver systems are supposed to take advantage of 'free' cooling in the form of extra subcooling. Your condenser fans are going to run all the time. When the liquid line is cold enough, the valve opens and bypasses receiver straight to the cases to take advantage of this.
I have a couple of these and try to keep a 20% level or so.
Surge receiver systems are supposed to take advantage of 'free' cooling in the form of extra subcooling. Your condenser fans are going to run all the time. When the liquid line is cold enough, the valve opens and bypasses receiver straight to the cases to take advantage of this.
I have a couple of these and try to keep a 20% level or so.
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Do a search on this site, some good info on surge receivers. When txv's need btu's gas goes out to the floor. when txv's are satisfied gas backs up into the surge tank untill it is needed again.
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Think jp is on it. w/m uses a lot of these and when ambient and drop leg temp is lower than the setpoint , liquid bypasses receiver , if you have good ambient subcooling and then dump the liquid in a warm tank , liquid is re-heated and then has to be mechanically subcooled. I believe the controller closes SV's to subcooler when surge valve is energized. Well , at least for that particular setup. Course , they're always changing their control strategies so who knows.
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The one's ive seen are n/c soleniod valves that energize during the bypass. Was at a call one time , the controller was bugging out , surge valve open then close , open then close , split valves doing the same. Middle of winter. There was some CRAZY liquid hammering and general chaos shaking the whole comp house!! My instinct was to walk out for safety , but decided to force surge valve on and cond to 50%. Had to re-boot and get a new download from Bentonville.
Get it while its Free and dont loose it!
Not sure exactly why you have the 2 drop legs with check valves. I guess it is possible that you have a split condenser?? have a look at your discharge line header and see if it goes through a 3 way valve of some sort and then to 2 discharge lines to the condenser.
Mike
JP Said it right, your drop leg does not go in the receiver it just shoots by it, this does let you keep the natural subcooling you get outside, its very up this way!
I think you may have forgot something possibly? do you have an inlet pressure regulator(condenser flooding valve) that is in the drop leg before the receiver and after where the 2 drop legs come together?
Not sure exactly why you have the 2 drop legs with check valves. I guess it is possible that you have a split condenser?? have a look at your discharge line header and see if it goes through a 3 way valve of some sort and then to 2 discharge lines to the condenser.
the receiver is being passed but it is still open to the system, if you look you should see a pressure reg (DPR/ORD or OPR/CRO)on the top of the receiver that puts discharge gas in to the receiver above the liquid level in the receiver.
from your first description you note that the drop leg goes to a Tee then on to the header and a solenoid valve is after that tee so i do not see you having a system that can run a surge receiver or conventional receiver, but I'm not going by a whole lot here haha, if you do have a convertible system it would be good to control your surge set up on condenser outlet sub cooling, some more primitive setups use a t stat on the drop leg, but there's no need for that with our fancy schmancy controllers we have on these systems haha. another thing is your drop leg insulated all the way back to the condenser?
Mike
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http://www.hussmann.com/Discontinued Tech Info/HSS_Rack_im.pdf
Surge receiver is covered on Page 51.
Are you having a specific problem or do you just want a better general understanding of the system.
Surge receiver is covered on Page 51.
Are you having a specific problem or do you just want a better general understanding of the system.
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381 Posts
im not trying to hijack thread...but isnt surge rec. aka. nc1 and nc2 as used on the carrier /tyler sys. now owned by hill phoenix?
I also found this old thread....w/ tyler pdf.... http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=409452
see icemiester post #5...I copied the pdf for myself as well.
I also found this old thread....w/ tyler pdf.... http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=409452
see icemiester post #5...I copied the pdf for myself as well.
Hill, Hussmann, Kysor, and tyler have all had their own versions. It also comes down to what the customer specs in their design when they buy a rack!
I've seen Hill now using Tyler's Enviroguard setup, but havn't seen them use the NC2 set up yet!(thats not saying they are not using it, i haven't seen one in my sheltered life haha)
I've seen Hill now using Tyler's Enviroguard setup, but havn't seen them use the NC2 set up yet!(thats not saying they are not using it, i haven't seen one in my sheltered life haha)
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Just started up a store in which Kysor somehow is using the exact thing as a Tyler Enviroguard. I don'y know how , but piping strategy and everything is the same. The Kysor rep called it The "Kysor Klean" Rack.
Are they using 3 relays for the SPR solenoid?Just started up a store in which Kysor somehow is using the exact thing as a Tyler Enviroguard. I don'y know how , but piping strategy and everything is the same. The Kysor rep called it The "Kysor Klean" Rack.
I've seen lots of "Tyler-kysor" racks haha
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Yeah I've seen a good amount also.
I believe only 1 for the surge valve. I had it set up with a condition , if I remember correctly. Surge would not feed unless dropleg is above 170# and the standard 15* condition is met.
Pumpout constantly runs as long as a machine is running.
Don't quote me...it's been a couple months. I'm butt deep in something totally different now.
I believe only 1 for the surge valve. I had it set up with a condition , if I remember correctly. Surge would not feed unless dropleg is above 170# and the standard 15* condition is met.
Pumpout constantly runs as long as a machine is running.
Don't quote me...it's been a couple months. I'm butt deep in something totally different now.
JP Are you having a specific problem or do you just want a better general understanding of the system.
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Not having a problem just want to know this rack! We just picked up the service on about 80 food lions! I use to think that food lion basically only used a couple different design plans but have been seeing all kinds and different set ups. They are also called Blooms and Bottom Dollars. Even ran across a couple Margo racks with old bauck compressors!
MikeySQ-- do you have an inlet pressure regulator(condenser flooding valve) that is in the drop leg before the receiver and after where the 2 drop legs come together?
I didn't see a holdback valve at any point on the drop leg! The hot gas comes out of the seperater into a check valve then into the DDRV then goes to heat reclaim valve and split condenser valve. The drop leg has no insulation on it at all. Is it possible that the split condenser is sized small enough that a hold back valve is not necessary?
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Not having a problem just want to know this rack! We just picked up the service on about 80 food lions! I use to think that food lion basically only used a couple different design plans but have been seeing all kinds and different set ups. They are also called Blooms and Bottom Dollars. Even ran across a couple Margo racks with old bauck compressors!
MikeySQ-- do you have an inlet pressure regulator(condenser flooding valve) that is in the drop leg before the receiver and after where the 2 drop legs come together?
I didn't see a holdback valve at any point on the drop leg! The hot gas comes out of the seperater into a check valve then into the DDRV then goes to heat reclaim valve and split condenser valve. The drop leg has no insulation on it at all. Is it possible that the split condenser is sized small enough that a hold back valve is not necessary?
The only systems that i know of with out a condenser "hold back" at the outlet of the condenser are tyler's enviroguard and NC2 type set ups, maybe look at that tyler book and see if you have something similar to the NC2?
and now where you say you have heat recovery you must have some sort of head pressure regulation, you cant be running HR on fan cycling alone?? but who know's it's done like that a lot up this way(which i think is a waste of time)
NC2 uses a Solenoid, a OLDR and a OPR for the reciever, maybe you are set up that way??
maybe grab and post a bunch of pics of this strategy and someone may know what's goin on with what you have there!
Mike
here is an oldie but a goodie explaining them:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=89060
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=89060
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