What do y'all think about this?
Sharkbite for Refrigeration Lines?
bobboan
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I've told this story before. It's only somewhat related, but I like the story so I'll tell it again...
At a fancy golf course clubhouse that we used to take care of they had this little old Latino housekeeping lady. She could barely speak English, but she was a nice lady and everybody loved her. One night she leaned a bunch of cardboard up against a row of water heaters and left for the night.
In the middle of the night the cardboard caught fire, and the room started to burn. The fire got so hot that it melted the solder out of a copper fittings above one of the water heaters (If anyone has tried to solder a fitting that has water in it, you can imagine how hot that room must have needed to get for this to happen). The fitting let loose and the spraying water put out the fire.
This happened in the basement of the building. They had some pretty bad fire damage in that mechanical room, and had to replace a bunch of drywall and carpet due to the water damage, but the building was saved.
Anyways, ever since that incident I can see why copper gas, fuel oil, compressed air, and refrigerant lines need to be brazed and not soldered.
With that being said, I know that copper Propress fittings used to be available and approved for gas piping. There are also Megapress fittings for steel gas piping. I never heard that those were against fire code, and I've never heard that Zoomlock fittings were banned either.
I also haven't seen anything official saying weather these push-on refrigerant fittings are ok to use or not.
I think in many cases it's really up to the code officials in your area weather it is allowed or not. Sometimes they let some things slide, and sometimes they make up their own rules.
At a fancy golf course clubhouse that we used to take care of they had this little old Latino housekeeping lady. She could barely speak English, but she was a nice lady and everybody loved her. One night she leaned a bunch of cardboard up against a row of water heaters and left for the night.
In the middle of the night the cardboard caught fire, and the room started to burn. The fire got so hot that it melted the solder out of a copper fittings above one of the water heaters (If anyone has tried to solder a fitting that has water in it, you can imagine how hot that room must have needed to get for this to happen). The fitting let loose and the spraying water put out the fire.
This happened in the basement of the building. They had some pretty bad fire damage in that mechanical room, and had to replace a bunch of drywall and carpet due to the water damage, but the building was saved.
Anyways, ever since that incident I can see why copper gas, fuel oil, compressed air, and refrigerant lines need to be brazed and not soldered.
With that being said, I know that copper Propress fittings used to be available and approved for gas piping. There are also Megapress fittings for steel gas piping. I never heard that those were against fire code, and I've never heard that Zoomlock fittings were banned either.
I also haven't seen anything official saying weather these push-on refrigerant fittings are ok to use or not.
I think in many cases it's really up to the code officials in your area weather it is allowed or not. Sometimes they let some things slide, and sometimes they make up their own rules.
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ammoniadog;25886501 Anyways said:
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Bingo! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! Lol
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I hope noone approves them, just another step toward DIY a/c of tomorrow.
Well, I stopped in my local Aireco branch a few days ago and here's the documentation and approvals on them.
Again, I'm just a tech like everyone else here and all that I asked for was opinions. However, when someone states an opinion as an established fact, and then can't back it up with factual data or documentation, his opinion has no validity.
As I've said many times: "opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple of them and they usually stink".
Again, I'm just a tech like everyone else here and all that I asked for was opinions. However, when someone states an opinion as an established fact, and then can't back it up with factual data or documentation, his opinion has no validity.
As I've said many times: "opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple of them and they usually stink".
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I’m against shark bite fittings for anything other than to get ya out of a bind with a water leak or something in the middle of the night. But that do have to meet certain standards and to go into houses or whatever have a UL listing and have to be somewhat safe. Things in our field are changing rapidly so I’m sure it’s not long and things like that are going to be more popular cuz let’s face it we’re prolly not gonna use copper forever. I’m sure they can make refrigerant lines out of plastic that’s plenty strong but it’s jist not cost effective yet. Could you imagine all the plumbers in a up roar when plastic plumbing lines first got popular and I’m sure they said it’ll never work or won’t last or whatever. Same is going to go for our trade as well it’s jist a matter of time. I hope that time is a long ways off myself. So my opinion on shark bite for refrigerant lines thumbs down for me
What manual is that?
They were right the first time with that grey plastic crap from the 80's that got banned...lol
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That stuff was a disaster. That’s how the first generation on shark bites for refrigeration will prolly be. Then who who knows it may be the bees knees. Time will tell. We all just gotta remember to keep an open and not to be like an old plow mule with blinders on all the time.
The only thing I could find code wise, was 1107.5.4 imc.
States any refrigerant in a2, a3, b2, b3 classes must be brazed if using copper tubing.
R22 and 410 are both a1 so that code does not apply to residential at this time.
R32, which I think is what daikin is switch too, along with whatever gas carrier is moving to, IS A2, so they wouldn't be allowed.
I don't like mechanical fittings.
Not them as a whole, but they rely to much on the ability of a person, who already has such a low ability they don't want to braze.
So, I'm sure the pipe has to be perfectly cut square and round.
When in the heck has anyone found a perfect round, square piece of soft copper doing a replacement, residentially?
It's like flaring. Nothing wrong with flares, but it seems like alot of people can't make one correctly.
EDIT:
that box says approved for R32. R32 is listed imc as a2.....wtf?
States any refrigerant in a2, a3, b2, b3 classes must be brazed if using copper tubing.
R22 and 410 are both a1 so that code does not apply to residential at this time.
R32, which I think is what daikin is switch too, along with whatever gas carrier is moving to, IS A2, so they wouldn't be allowed.
I don't like mechanical fittings.
Not them as a whole, but they rely to much on the ability of a person, who already has such a low ability they don't want to braze.
So, I'm sure the pipe has to be perfectly cut square and round.
When in the heck has anyone found a perfect round, square piece of soft copper doing a replacement, residentially?
It's like flaring. Nothing wrong with flares, but it seems like alot of people can't make one correctly.
EDIT:
that box says approved for R32. R32 is listed imc as a2.....wtf?
My local United Refrigeration is selling theses fittings,I know that they are expensive.i have been brazing for 40 years.No need to start using these fitting now.However ,I'm going to grab one at United just to read the literature on them.See if there are do and don's with them.
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The 2018 International Mechanical Code 1104-5-3 states:
https://www.ci.independence.mo.us/userdocs/ComDev/2018 INTL MECH CODE.pdf
So if I read that correctly.
Provided we are under 7/8 tube, its legal, and the pipe joint section is specifically related to brazing/soldering?
The way I interpreted it, was that mechanical joints were fine in class A1 and class b1, but classes a2 a3 b2 b3 needed to be brazed.
The previous mentioned code only bans the usage of mechanical fittings above 7/8, but doesn't specifically allow it under 7/8, with the following section further mandating brazing on flammable refrigerants.
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The way I read 1107.5.3, mechanical joints (such as flare nuts) for soft copper up to 7/8"OD are allowed. The exception to this being pressed fittings listed for refrigeration. I read this as any size press fitting
listed for refrigerant would be acceptable.
Then 1107.5.4 states all joints for A2,A3,B2 and B3 must be brazed, which I interpret to mean no mechanical joints (neither pressed nor flare) are allowed for those refrigerant classes.
listed for refrigerant would be acceptable.
Then 1107.5.4 states all joints for A2,A3,B2 and B3 must be brazed, which I interpret to mean no mechanical joints (neither pressed nor flare) are allowed for those refrigerant classes.
Which would exclude these fittings from usage of r32 or carriers new refrigerant, correct, even though the box Bob posted shows approved for R32?
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I would agree. In Sporlan's Zoomlok literature shows a long list of refrigerants, but they add an * for the flammables, noting you should contact your local building and mechanical code officials. They also show the IMC in a list of approval agencies and certifications along with UL, ASHRAE. etc.
https://www.parker.com/Literature/A... and Refrigeration Division/Misc. docs/Literature PDFs/Catalog K-1 ZoomLock.pdf
I appreciate the latest answers that have cited specific code references.
Question: could the discrepancy about the fitting being approved for R32 and how that's listed in the IMC be because the approval is more up to date than the edition of the IMC being cited?
Question: could the discrepancy about the fitting being approved for R32 and how that's listed in the IMC be because the approval is more up to date than the edition of the IMC being cited?
My state uses 2018, which is what I references.
Couldn't find the most recent online.
I saw something about Iowa wanting a specific exemption added in their code allowing the usage, but couldn't find out what happened.
The fitting being approved and allow are 2 different things, I believe.
Kind of like, will it work? Oh yeah.
Can I use it? Oh, no.
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