[GApeach1]

Hi,

We are planning to change out 2 original Trane systems. We currently have a 2.5 ton and 2 ton Trane XE60 that are 22 years old (yet working fine!) and 8 seer condensors. We are in north GA, about an hour northwest of Atlanta. We have a two story home, 3000 sq. foot, no basement, all bedrooms are upstairs. We are planning to upgrade to a more efficient system and would like any suggestions / comments on what has been proposed to us. It is a huge expense :gah: and we want to get it right the first time!

We are planning on replacing with Trane systems since they seem to have a great warranty and are very reliable. We are thinking of the XV80 furnace with the XL16i AC one 3 ton and one 2 ton unit. We are also considering going with 2 XL16i heat pumps, with natural gas, but are unsure if this is the best way to proceed. Any suggestions on the merits of this would be appreciated! The Trane sales reps advise this is a good idea to have 2 sources of heat (gas or electric) without a loss of efficiency and for only a few hundred dollars more. One dealer has advised that we would need two extra returns installed, to compensate for the extra .5 ton - but no one else has mentioned this. Thoughts??

We are also being advised that the variable speed furnace will allow for a reduction of humidity and increased efficiency of the AC or heat pump.
We are a little unclear of how this is reflected, via thermostat or ??
One dealer is recommending the Honeywell IAQ Thermostat and one is recommending the Trane XL803, but also mentioned a fancy Comfort Link II that he says would allow you to set the heat pump with you Kwh cost and the unit would automatically choose the set point on when to switch from gas to electric or vice versa. True?? We do not need to control the unit from a smartphone or anything but would be interested in the previous functionality.
We plan to be in the house for at least 15 more years.

Any comments would be very much appreciated!!

 

[Tempted]

Are they going to perform a load calc on your home. Unless your 2.5 ton was having a hard time keeping the area cool, you may only need a 2 ton vs a 3 ton. The return air maybe ok, .5 ton is 200 cfm. If anything 1 would suffice.

XL16i is 2 stage and the XV80 is 2 stage, They will run at a reduced capacity (Lower speed) first which will allow for longer run time which will help remove more humidity.

I like duel fuel (heat pump and gas furnace) for our area. If the difference in price is as you stated I would jump at it. It will pay for itself in heating savings.

See this post on your stat.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=660341

 

[beenthere]

I believe the 15i generally has better heat output over the 16i.

 

[BaldLoonie]

If you are looking at 2 stage backup heat and want it properly staged, you don't want an 803. Get a VP or Prestige IAQ.

We find it is rare to have a duct system big enough for what you have so it doesn't surprise me that one suggests adding to it for a larger unit. Good boy.

been's point about lower heat output of the 16i is certainly true. Matches of the 3 ton run 32,000-33,000 BTU. But many matches of the XR15 and XL15i aren't much better though a few hit 36-37,000 BTU. Key would be finding out exactly what furnace & coil is being proposed and looking at the performance of that exact system.

Also the 16i isn't known as a great dehumidifying machine on low. And low isn't that much less than high. So you could get better dehumidification from a 15 single stage.

 

[GApeach1]

4TWX6036 heat pump
4TXCB036BC coil
TUD2B080A9V36 furnace. This is for the 3 ton XL16i

4TWX6024
4TXCB025BC coil
TUD2B060A9V36 furnace For the 2 ton XL16i

for the XR15 systems
2.5 ton
4TWR5030 heat pump
4TXCB031BC coil
THD2B060A9V36 furnace

2.0 ton
4TWR5024 heat pump
4TXCB025BC coil
TUD2B080A9V3 furnace

There is a $ difference in price between the two systems.
Both have Honeywell IAQ listed for the thermostat, no model number.

Hope this helps..

 

[GApeach1]

4TWX6036 heat pump
4TXCB036BC coil
TUD2B080A9V36 furnace. This is for the 3 ton XL16i

4TWX6024
4TXCB025BC coil
TUD2B060A9V36 furnace For the 2 ton XL16i

for the XR15 systems
2.5 ton
4TWR5030 heat pump
4TXCB031BC coil
THD2B060A9V36 furnace

2.0 ton
4TWR5024 heat pump
4TXCB025BC coil
TUD2B080A9V3 furnace

There is a $$ difference in price between the two systems.
Both have Honeywell IAQ listed for the thermostat, no model number.

Hope this helps..

!!!

 

[GApeach1]

Regarding load calc, their literature states that do a manual J calc, air duct leakage calc , infiltometer blower door testing, and air flow leakage reduction guarantee ..,but this is apparently after you are a serious customer which I can understand because it is probably expensive for them to do- although it probably should be done before any quote.

 

[gravity]

You should have a Manual J done for your home. Also have Manual D performed to make sure the duct work can handle the new proposed systems. when in heating mode with a heatpump you need at minimum 400cfm per ton. A lot of duct systems out there can rarely give 350CFM/ton with good static pressures. If you have a inefficient duct system then the efficiency of the WHOLE system will not be good. You may have 13SEER equipment and be outputting 6SEER because of duct system.

All in all the 16i is a decent system. i like the xv80 furnaces. down south alot of people say the 16i cannot keep up with humidity removal and the 20i is a better system for the job.

you would also need a Honeywell IAQ thermostat which can provide 4 stages of heat or a Trane XL950 stat. any thermostat less then 4 heat will not properly stage your equipment if you go 2 stage. the xv80 is 2 stage gas heat and the 16i has 2 stage compressor

 

[BaldLoonie]

The 2 ton 16i with 25 coil doesn't appear to be a proper match. Best match is a 4TXCB004 (which isn't a cheap coil like the 25) and get 17.00 SEER, 13.00 EER and 9.00 HSPF. Heating capacity is 24,600.

By comparison with the XR15 with an 060 furnace is 14.75 SEER, 12.50 EER and 8.20 HSPF. Heating capacity is 23,200. So a little lower everything, especially SEER which is cool weather cooling. Hot weather cooling (EER) is pretty close.

3 ton 16i system is 15.75 SEER, 12.00 EER, 8.50 HSPF. Cooling is 33,600, heating is a bit wimpy at 32,000.

XR15 system with 080 furnace, I assume you reversed them on the 15: 13.75 SEER, 11.50 EER, 8.50 HSPF. Cooling is 34,000 BTU, heating better at 34,200. So going this route, you'd gain a bit in capacity, especially heating. SEER is 2 points less, EER a bit less, HSPF the same. So really this sucker would be a better heating machine than the 16i.

You know your budget. Will you save enough on the 16i systems to pay back in the life of the equipment? Maybe, though the lower capacity and equal HSPF of the 16i 3 ton means a slightly higher heating cost with the expensive machine. Is there enough of a comfort advantage on the 2 stage to justify the price? That's the hard call. I didn't spend it, some do. We can't tell you, you have to make that judgement yourself. The split between temp removal & humidity removal on low & high of the 16i shows lower dehumidification on low stage so justifying the extra for humidity control is not a factor. Couple that with the fact that dehumidify on demand with the XV and the IAQ doesn't work with the 16i but does with the XR15 might say you'll have better humidity control with the single stage. My view has been spend the savings over the 16i on insulation or something with a fast payback.

 

[GApeach1]

!!!

$$$

 

[beenthere]

No prices allowed in post. Please read site rules, thank you.

 

[GApeach1]

Oops... Sorry. I took that to mean you could not ask for pricing from a dealer...I was just trying to show the differential to get a professional opinion of the payback time. But I understand....
The person who said a different coil- would that be in the same unit or s different one ?? I just pulled those numbers from the quotes but they are like greek to me

 

[GApeach1]

dehumidify on demand

dehumidify on demand with the XV and the IAQ doesn't work with the 16i but does with the XR15

Could someone explain this in a little greater detail...the thermostat will not work with the unit??:gah: Is there one that will?
Thanks for all of the help thus far, it is alot to take in.

 

[gravity]

the IAQ works with the 16i. I used one last thursday on the 16i I installed.

the xl950 is a nice thermostat. you would also have to purchase the relay panel for it. it does up to 5 heat. its like an ipad on your wall in full color!

 

[teddy bear]

Providing <50%RH humidity is a critical part of comfort. With green grass climates the outside dew points are high while there is low/no cooling loads. Expecting the a/c to maintain <50%RH with the moisture from the occupants and adequate fresh air infiltration/ventilation, is impossible. Two speed or single speed a/c needs several hours of long cycle cooling runs.
I suggest getting a +65 pint per day whole house dehumidifier along with a single speed a/c. The investment is similar but the humidity control is perfect without any overcooling. Set the temp and %RH, 50%RH is simple. This also provides the option of a/c off while maintaining <50%RH for a faction of attempting providing low humidity by over-cooling.
Check out the Ultra-Aire whole house dehumidifier, who is a sponsor of this sight.
Also Ultra-Aires are able to provide filtered fresh air when the home is occupied, while maintaining <50%RH. This is very comfortable and healthy during wet cool weather.
Regards TB

 

[GApeach1]

Zoning? We have also had a suggestion that zoning could be used - most likely a 4ton trane 16i with the 80% furnace (waiting on manual J calcs). This would use ECW zone controls and a bypass damper would be needed. We have upstairs/downstairs with a balcony upstairs with 2 bedrooms on the left ad a large master on the right...there is also a guest room partially over the garage that is usually hotter/colder than the rest of the house. I am just concerned that the unit would be "always running" and we would have increased maintenance costs with the electronic dampers.. the rep says that is is actually more efficient because the air has already been "conditioned" before it passes back over the coil. Pros / cons??? Stick with 2 systems?