[Omnipotent]

Ok...so just moved in to new house with two Water Furnace Premier zones (3 ton upstairs and 4 ton downstairs). The 3 ton upstairs units has been having problems since we've moved in, and just recently found out that the previous owners and the original owners have had problems with this particular unit from essentially day one. The issue that I'm having at the moment is a "water flow" problem. Tech (water furnace dealer) came and said he needed to "juice" the system...did so, paid him and problem went away...for about a day or two. Problem is now back and need to know a) can't I just add water to the system? Seems the connections are straight forward (BTW, I can't find an owners manual for the unit). b) why would the unit continue to have a "water flow" issue? For the record, I do not know if it's a closed or open loop system...is there anyway to tell looking at the unit itself?

Next, the coil has (and probably will again) iced up, causing the compressor to shut down and run on straight aux heat. This isn't good for a number of reasons not the least of which is my electric bill is going to be through the roof. Tech couldn't check the refrigerant level because they had to move "something" (don't remember the name) from once port to the port where one would check refrigerant levels...so he "guessed" and added 2 pounds (seems iffy to me), again I paid (375) and again, it was good for about a day and then iced up again, shut down the compressor and went back to aux heat. He came back, and said that they needed to replace a "TX (sp?) valve", and while at it, discharge all the refrigerant and refill it...cost $2500.

I'm starting to wonder, a) should I find another dealer? b) since this unit has had problems since day one should I even fix it. c)Buy a new 3 ton unit?

Any thoughts on all of this are appreciated.

Omni

 

[d_griff]

First of all we cannot discuss prices on this forum..
secondly if you came here, you probably dont trust the outift, Maybe you can find one that is specialized in your units, Call the manufacturer and look for a rep?
You can see if the loop you are having problems with has a strainer, Valve it off and pull it and make sure it is not plugged.
We will all just be guessing at your problem from here. We cant see a damn thing

 

[ga-hvac-tech]

I am not a geo person... however have been around them a little...

They are GREAT when they work correctly... yet they are complicated. Best to have someone that understands them do the service.

If you do not like or trust the service person that was out... call the manufacturer and request a list of folks in your area.

 

[Southern Mech]

problem from day 1, call another dealer, after contacting Water Furnace for their next in line reccomendation. did he juice the system on the water side or refrigerant side? If Water side it's a closed loop, as well with the refrigerant side. Either way big problem. It's obvious the current people working on it don't have a clue. And I would request them to come back out first 1 you just paid em a wad of cash and no fix, 2 I would test there knowledge on said system, then go to another company.

 

[Omnipotent]

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, the company is the Water Furnace recommended vendor for this area, I could go outside the area but I'm guessing there is some sort of franchising arrangement with WF and the "other" guys might be reluctant to come on out.

I will check for a strainer, but have to say, from recollection (heck it's downstairs and I could go look but I'm lazy at the moment) I didn't see anything similar to that...the pipes come in from the loop, into a "pump" (don't know really what it is, some unit mounted on the side of the furnace that 2 pipes go into from the outside and 2 pipes come out of to the unit) and that's about it.

As for dollars, I'll keep them off the forum from here on out...just frustrated more than anything as this dealer hasn't done much for me thus far (also had them install a steam humidifier and that still isn't working 45 days later). I'm fairly handy, and while in know way will I claim to be an HVAC expert...heck even an apprentice I'm reading everything I can find, and at this point believe my best option is to find the problem and a) fix it myself or b) identify said problem and then have someone else do the work for me if I can't perform myself.

As for eyes...I clearly understand that you are guessing at the problem based on my cryptic descriptions, but any insight on where/what to look for would be helpful as I continue to try and resolve the problem...before winter is over with.

Thanks again, and in the morning I'll go look and see about if they in fact installed some type of filter on the pipes.

Omni

 

[ga-hvac-tech]

Might want to see if there are any other geo folks around... Might find someone that will help you.

WE have a strict 'NO DIY" policy here, pro's that give out too much tech info can get a 'vacation'...

 

[Southern Mech]

well I have to say this. Something's wrong, or just aint right

 

[ga-hvac-tech]

well I have to say this. And I could be way wrong again without seeing this engineering marvel. you should have 1 pipe rom outside in to and through pump to unit, the other should go from unit to outside. I am not sure they exhist, a dual pump 1 that pumps both directions that is at the same time.

The geo's I am familiar with use dual pumps (push/pull) for anything 3 ton or larger. I suspect he has a closed loop that has a 'dihydromonoxide' leak... but I am not there to look at it or test it.

 

[Omnipotent]

problem from day 1, call another dealer, after contacting Water Furnace for their next in line reccomendation. did he juice the system on the water side or refrigerant side? If Water side it's a closed loop, as well with the refrigerant side. Either way big problem. It's obvious the current people working on it don't have a clue. And I would request them to come back out first 1 you just paid em a wad of cash and no fix, 2 I would test there knowledge on said system, then go to another company.

The first trip out he juiced the water side (I thought that would mean a closed loop system, but didn't want to assume), the second time out he added the refrigerant without determining if it actually needed refrigerant.

As for knowledge, this company claims to have installed 80 WF units this year alone, and is the recommended installer for this area...the guys (2 of them) they sent out "seem" to know the units, but I've been less than impressed with their "fixes" to this point (for the record, I'm generally less impressed with most service company's these days so I could be overly hard on them). Especially, when they say "Well, now we have to replace "x", with no real reason why "x" is the problem. It would be different if they had a valid reason why they believe replacing "x" would solve the problem, but I think they are just throwing darts, which is why I'm now here.

Again, any places to start diagnosing myself are abundantly welcome.

 

[Southern Mech]

The first trip out he juiced the water side (I thought that would mean a closed loop system, but didn't want to assume), the second time out he added the refrigerant without determining if it actually needed refrigerant.

As for knowledge, this company claims to have installed 80 WF units this year alone, and is the recommended installer for this area...the guys (2 of them) they sent out "seem" to know the units, but I've been less than impressed with their "fixes" to this point (for the record, I'm generally less impressed with most service company's these days so I could be overly hard on them). Especially, when they say "Well, now we have to replace "x", with no real reason why "x" is the problem. It would be different if they had a valid reason why they believe replacing "x" would solve the problem, but I think they are just throwing darts, which is why I'm now here.

Again, any places to start diagnosing myself are abundantly welcome.

oh, part's changer's. How old of a system, should have a warranty. Tell them they can change all the parts they want, bill it to Water Furnace.

 

[d_griff]

I agree with GA-Tech, Find another geo specialist in your area if youre not happy.
If there is a pump, there should be a strainer IMHO
What kind of steam hum?

 

[Omnipotent]

oh, part's changer's. How old of a system, should have a warranty. Tell them they can change all the parts they want, bill it to Water Furnace.

LMAO....The system is ~8 years old...and I'm the third owner of said system...doubtful any warranty will transfer that far.

 

[Southern Mech]

problem now with strainer check, is now you have a system with too much gas or unknown at least. I would out source to different company, doesn't really need to be a Water Furnace dealer being no warranty, just make sure it's a geo thermal- specialist, tell them the history, so they know to go back and check the prior work.

 

[Omnipotent]

I agree with GA-Tech, Find another geo specialist in your area if youre not happy.
If there is a pump, there should be a strainer IMHO
What kind of steam hum?

I'll check on the 2nd supplier of WF to the area....it's worth a shot.

Strainer - will definitely check that out in the morning.

As for the Humidifier, it's an AprilAire 800 series.

As for the DIY'er comment...I totally appreciate the "protecting" (might be the wrong word) of the trade...and the homeowner :callpro: but as an EE I've torn into a lot of various systems over the years and figured most things out....but if this isn't the "right" place for these types of questions I'll move along, but from searching and reading it seemed like there was a lot of knowledge to be gained here.

Again, thanks in advance for whatever guidance can be given within the rules.

 

[Bergy]

The 3 ton upstairs units has been having problems since we've moved in, and just recently found out that the previous owners and the original owners have had problems with this particular unit from essentially day one.

Was this disclosed at the time of purchase? If not, you might be able to put this back on them.

The FIRST rule of Geothermal service is DO NOT TOUCH THE REFRIGERANT CIRCUIT UNLESS IT IS DETERMINED THERE IS A PROBLEM!!! One can not "guess" and put two pounds of refrigerant in ANYTHING! The heat of rejection/extraction must be calculated first. If that indicates a problem then the refrigerant circuit should be looked at.

Bergy

 

[ga-hvac-tech]

Was this disclosed at the time of purchase? If not, you might be able to put this back on them.

The FIRST rule of Geothermal service is DO NOT TOUCH THE REFRIGERANT CIRCUIT UNLESS IT IS DETERMINED THERE IS A PROBLEM!!! One can not "guess" and put two pounds of refrigerant in ANYTHING! The heat of rejection/extraction must be calculated first. If that indicates a problem then the refrigerant circuit should be looked at.

Bergy

Good point!

If the loop is not working properly (collecting or rejecting heat), adding or recovering refrigerant will just compound the issue... Sounds like you need a different service co... and if the unit is out/warranty... you do not need a Water Furnace co... just be SURE the folks you call have geo experience.

 

[Omnipotent]

OK. so I'm back. Thanks for the input thus far and let me see if I can respond to the outstanding questions:

As for disclosure...it was a short sale/foreclosure so it was sold "as is"...nothing much to go after there so I'm stuck with what I've gotten.

I agree with regards to "guessing" at the refrigerant level...that was my first reason to suspect something was up with them, more so than the unit.

I confirmed that the 3 ton unit with the problem only had 1 pump on it (on the "to unit" so I assume it's only "pushing"); while the 4 ton unit (working one) has two pumps (push/pull). I wonder if having only the single pump could be the issue for the "water flow" indicator light?

I could not find any sort of strainer or anything that resembled a strainer...I'm assumig this device would be inline with the water flow and should be able to be removed by closing a valve to stop water flow.....inspect/clean, re-insert and turn water back on...in any event, nothing like that appears to be installed, on either system.

The most basic of questions...what would cause a water flow light to be on? Is this generally more about a blockage? low/high pressure (btw, have both of these lights on the system and neither of them are on)? air in the line? All of the above? Is their a typical check on the loop to determine if it's having a problem or something else? Something like a pressure test, leak down test...something along those lines? Thinking automotive a little bit, but would think on a closed loop system there should be some sort of way to test it out.

Again thanks and on Monday I'll be calling another HVAC company, but the issue is around here (MD) there aren't many Geo knowledgable company's...and the one I'm using seems to be the biggest of the ones that do work on these sytems.

 

[Southern Mech]

Heat xchanger could be fouled, pump not working as should, ground loop issue, line pinched. There is a way to check water flow and the tech should check this, if he don't he's clueless. and if it's never been checked he should be smacked. there is a equasion you do and then some conversion to a chart for that unit, and it has allowable spec's for flow.

 

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just my $0.02 worth:

BOTH systems should IMO have push/pull pump systems. Bard (another geo company) uses push/pull on 3 ton and up.

Each system should have the filter/strainer on the line that returns from the loop.

There are ways to test a loop for leaks, that is something your geo dealer needs to do.

I would do some serious searching for a good geo guy. They do not need to be a large established shop, sometimes the little guy is OCD and does a thorough job... and sometimes for a little less $$$... you willl just have to interview a few folks and let your gut tell you who is thorough and reliable.

Having said this, I would NOT shop by price... Kinda like taking your Mercedes or Lexus to the shop... you would surely NOT use the corner gas station for engine work... :eek2:

 

[d_griff]

Are you sure the light is not indicating that there IS suffiecent flow, And not telling you there is a problem?