[angelo52]

Hi All,

I’ve enjoyed learning in this forum. Hoping someone can shed some light on my new central AC issue.

Last summer I had a new furnace and central AC system sold and installed at my house by a reputable local HVAC company.

After installation, the AC worked fine for about an hour and was cooling the house toward the set temperature of 75F / 24C. The outside temperature was about 90F / 32C. The compressor was humming quietly as usual.

After an hour, the compressor hum suddenly got VERY loud. I could hear it from inside at the opposite end of the house. Outside, the humming could be heard from 2 houses down, above all the other AC units. Warm air was coming out of the registers and the whole system shut itself off after about a minute of loud humming. The system automatically started back up again after a few minutes, and cooling resumed as if nothing happened.

I called the installers back to look, and everything looked fine to them.

That same day, the system operated for a few more hours without issue, and then the issue happened again in the evening. The next morning, the installers returned, replaced the refrigerant, increased the fan speed, checked pressures, and monitored the system for a couple of hours as it operated. Everything appeared to be fine.

The system ran for a few days without issue. Then the issue happened again one hot afternoon after running fine for a few hours.

I noticed that when the system runs for a few hours, the housing on the evaporator coil is cold to the touch, and part of the duct above the coil it has condensation on the exterior. I don’t think the coil is freezing up, because the system resumes normal operation after just a few minutes. Could it be minor partial freezing? I have a 2 ton condenser and, for some reason, a 3 ton evaporator coil. Is the coil too large and not getting even airflow?

I called the sales rep asking to replace the whole AC system, but no response. The weather cooled down and I put the issue to rest for a while. The AC unit has a 5 year warranty with full replacement if it malfunctions more than 3 times.

I expect this issue will keep happening next summer.

Any ideas what the issue may be? The local HVAC company isn't having any luck.

Equipment:

Furnace: Carrier Performance Series Gas Furnace - 59TP6 – 60,000 BTU
Condenser: Carrier Comfort 12 – 24ABB3 – 2.0 ton
Evaporator: Carrier 3.0 Ton (why did they install a 3 ton evaporator with a 2 ton condenser?)
Lines: Same lines from old system were re-used. Visually, they look OK.
Thermostat: Nest 3rd Gen

House:
1450sq ft detached, brick, 2 storey
Built in year 2000
Ontario, Canada
The furnace is in the basement, and the condenser unit is only a few feet away, at the side of the house. The lines are 10ft at most.


Thanks for reading.

 

[ksefan]

Totally a wild guess, overcharged with too much refrigerant. Maybe find a better contractor to do an overall check of the system and install.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Seen several indoor coils that look to be up to 3 ton rated as a AHRI match to the 2 ton Outdoor coil. Looks to be a ADP brand coils.

If you want to know if yours is a AHRI match, would need complete model numbers of outdoor unit, furnace and most importantly the model number of indoor coil and brand name. Many times they install a larger coil than outdoor unit to increase SEER or EER. Not saying that’s the case with yours thou.

https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/...LVC3/aFB9wkj0dGAH2LYTkxrrvHqTutDBOfY5KfqVOlcsKLDgzCh6GbGLPbO&ProductTypeId=3500

If you can catch it doing it again take a video to show the Tech.

If your system got registered initially, you should have a 10/10 compressor and parts manufacturers warranty, the furnace 10 years parts and a limited lifetime HX warranty to original registered owner.

Not to sure what the 5 year replacement warranty your referencing to, if 3 failures.

If you reside in Quebec, registration is not registered to receive the manufacturers maximum warranty.

Does your country have rebates, as at 96%+ the furnace and the variable speed blower would probably apply.

I’m reading the brochure as Carrier Comfort 13 and not Carrier Comfort 12 as you state.

 

[pecmsg]

How old was the ok’d system.
Replaced same size for same size
Did they do a start up and commissioning report?
Air flow readings
Superheat & Subcooling
Amperage
Voltage.

Doubtful

Any # of things or combination there of.

Get a factory approved contractor too review the entire job.

 

[angelo52]

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I had a typo, the condenser model is Carrier Comfort 13 (not 12).

The evaporator coil label shows the company CAC / BDP and the model CNPVP3617ALAAAAA

The whole system was installed new last June. It replaced a 20 year old system of the same size. The previous evaporator coil was likely smaller, at 2 tons, but not sure.

I remember the techs checking the refrigerant charge and showing it to me on the gauge. They mentioned it was correctly charged.

No commissioning report unfortunately. They didn't seem interested in doing one. They did show me a temperature drop of 17 degrees between the return air and supply air. Cooling seems adequate when the system works properly. On the hottest days, the system runs constantly until the evening and is able to maintain a steady temperature.

The HVAC contractor offers a 10 year parts and labour warranty. They also offer replacement after 3 failures in 5 years. It's a bit confusing but there's good coverage, assuming they can see the problem and agree to a claim.

In Ontario I don't believe we have rebates anymore for high efficiency furnaces (or windows, insulation etc). Our energy rebates come and go as government changes.

I am considering bringing in another contractor to take a look. I have to be careful not to void the warranty so not sure how much work they can do on the system.

I do have videos of the issue occuring and will get more if I can in the summer.

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I had a typo, the condenser model is Carrier Comfort 13 (not 12).

The evaporator coil label shows the company CAC / BDP and the model CNPVP3617ALAAAAA

The whole system was installed new last June. It replaced a 20 year old system of the same size. The previous evaporator coil was likely smaller, at 2 tons, but not sure.

I remember the techs checking the refrigerant charge and showing it to me on the gauge. They mentioned it was correctly charged.

No commissioning report unfortunately. They didn't seem interested in doing one. They did show me a temperature drop of 17 degrees between the return air and supply air. Cooling seems adequate when the system works properly. On the hottest days, the system runs constantly until the evening and is able to maintain a steady temperature.

The HVAC contractor offers a 10 year parts and labour warranty. They also offer replacement after 3 failures in 5 years. It's a bit confusing but there's good coverage, assuming they can see the problem and agree to a claim.

In Ontario I don't believe we have rebates anymore for high efficiency furnaces (or windows, insulation etc). Our energy rebates come and go as government changes.

I am considering bringing in another contractor to take a look. I have to be careful not to void the warranty so not sure how much work they can do on the system.

I do have videos of the issue occuring and will get more if I can in the summer.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Still need complete model number of Outdoor and Furnace number to tell you if it’s a AHRI match.

“The HVAC contractor offers a 10 year parts and labour warranty”

To bad the Contractor is offering the 10 year labour warranty, as if this Contractor goes out of business your stuck with no labor warranty. If the extended labour warranty is backed by Carrier, and the Contractor goes out of business, you just find another Carrier dealer who participates in the extended labour warranty plan....that may be easier said than done thou, as some Contractors don’t like to take on other Contractors problems.

Also the manufacturers gives the 10 year parts warranty and compressor warranty ( once registered) not the Installing Contractor.

Check yourself, here is 4 AHRI numbers, depending on your furnace width ( 14” or 17” ) and other numbers will be your number. Hopefully at least one lines up.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...jAAegQIAhAC&url=https://www.ahridirectory.org/&usg=AOvVaw1Psb39iTznxCFNAi8fJHHj

Enter each number in top left corner and hit search. Numbers are 203499749, 203499849, 206455194, 206455200 if research was done correctly. Hit select in blue, then the AHRI number in blue to view the Certificate.

All look to give you 14 SEER on paper.

Reading that coil number you provided, it’s a ADP ( Lennox owned company ) and 17” wide coil

 

[angelo52]

Found the model numbers:

Indoor Model Number: Carrier 59TP6B060V171214
Outdoor Model Number: Carrier 24ABB324A350
Outdoor Product Number: Carrier 24ABB324ABN35010

I asked my sales rep if I need to register my warranty with Carrier and they said "no, we take care of all that for you". I asked a second time later and they said that the warranty is with them (the HVAC contractor). I could have had a bad sales rep. I may call back and ask someone else the same questions. They're the largest HVAC contractor in the country, so maybe there's some merit to that? I'm pretty new to all this, so it's hard for me to know what's right.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I would not trust them to register your system, could easily fall through the cracks. Check to see if it’s been registered at Carrier site, maybe try warranty lookup.

Here’s the site to register your system. Worst case if you enter the serial number of each piece it should say it’s already registered, hopefully it’s registered to you. Also ask them for the vericattion letter that shows it’s been registered and your getting the 10/10 compressor and parts warranty from Carrier. On the furnace you should be getting a 10 year parts and limited lifetime HX warranty.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...rier.com/Public/RegistrationForm?brand=carrier&usg=AOvVaw0hL1ljvVzWUVazQTiY344A

This may be a USA registration site thou, if so I’m sure there is one for Canadians.


On the indoor coil, you will have to go to ADP web-site to check or register your coil as that’s a different manufacturer. That coil should show 10 years also.

Looks like the 2nd AHRI number given looks to match ( using the product number of the OD unit ) as your furnace shows 17” wide, two of the four numbers given show a 14” wide furnace. AHRI number 203499849?

Again the manufacturers ( Carrier in this case ) gives the equipment warranty, certainly the Installing Contractor can give you the extended labor warranty. You may want to ask them ( if your getting a 5 or 10 year extended labor warranty) who’s covering it, the manufacturer or the Contractor. Usually Contractors give a one year labor warranty on new equipment, at least that’s the most common one here in the USA.

 

[angelo52]

Thanks Bazooka Joey and everyone for your help. I'll check the registrations and the warranty details closely to make sure it's all OK. With the intermittent issue I'm having, I may need to make a claim on that warranty.

Thanks again.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Here’s ADP warranty sheet says for USA and Canada. Shows both search record ( to see if coil was registered) and registration. If not registered you drop from 10 years to 5 years. Same with the A/C a 5/5 instead of 10/10. Only place where you don’t need to register and get the full manufacturers warranty is California and Quebec. Ontario is its own province and does not fall under Quebec yes?

https://www.adpnow.com/adp-warranty/

 

[angelo52]

I checked the Carrier site and, sure enough, none of the equipment was registered. So I went ahead and registered it to my name on the Carrier site, even the indoor evaporator unit. It's past the 90 day registration period to get the full 10 year warranty, so I'm stuck with the 5 year warranty. I can probably argue it though, since the dealer made a mistake.

The warranty card for the indoor unit says the manufacturer is CAC / BDP and to register at the cac-bdp website. That site they gave me doesn't exist though.

Not sure how ADP fits in, as I don't see it anywhere in the documentation.

I was able to register at Carrier anyway. Maybe Carrier now owns CAC / BDP?

I guess many homeowners miss these steps when their dealers don't properly inform them.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I checked the Carrier site and, sure enough, none of the equipment was registered. So I went ahead and registered it to my name on the Carrier site, even the indoor evaporator unit. It's past the 90 day registration period to get the full 10 year warranty, so I'm stuck with the 5 year warranty. I can probably argue it though, since the dealer made a mistake.

The warranty card for the indoor unit says the manufacturer is CAC / BDP and to register at the cac-bdp website. That site they gave me doesn't exist though.

Not sure how ADP fits in, as I don't see it anywhere in the documentation.

I was able to register at Carrier anyway. Maybe Carrier now owns CAC / BDP?

I guess many homeowners miss these steps when their dealers don't properly inform them.

Sorry BDP stands for Bryant which is part of Carrier, CAC is Carrier don’t know where I got ADP from. The AHRI certificate given you says Carrier/Bryant coil. I’m getting all mixed up, researching AHRI numbers does that to you lol. I’d give the Dealer a piece of my mind for dragging their feet about registration when they told you don’t worry it’s registered.

 

[angelo52]

Ah ok. I found the correct BDP site and looked up my registration status and it was there. Looks like my registration from the Carrier site a few minutes ago carried over to the BDP site. Must all be the same system.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

What are your warranties, you only got a 5 year parts and 5 years compressor warranty on OD unit, instead of 10/10? a 5 year warranty on the indoor coil instead of 10 years? and a 20 year HX warranty and 5 years parts on the furnace? Instead of limited lifetime HX warranty and 10 years parts on furnace, and they told you they,...would take care of all the warranties if so I’d be @#2$ Rippin if that’s true.

 

[angelo52]

Yes that's exactly correct what you wrote. I would be mad, however, the contract I signed with the installing contractor clearly states that they provide a 10 year parts and labor warranty, with no fine print. I also have an email from them stating this. They're likely to still be around in 10 years, so I'm not too worried.

I just hope we find the source of the problem soon, so we can fix or replace the unit.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I find that odd that they never registered it for you to have Carrier not back the manufacturers warranty. To me anyway, that’s like buying a new car and instead of having as an example a 36,000 mile 3 year warranty backed by the manufacturer, the dealer is giving the 36,000 mile warranty and 3 years. I must be missing something here.

 

[angelo52]

It does seem odd. I'll call and see what they say about it.

 

[pacnw]

1)Why replace the refrigerant?

2)Why no start up sheet?
With 1 & 2 you cannot determine the correct refrigerant amount without doing a proper start up, whether it is written down or not is another story. As the customer, ask for it to be done. It is, or used to be, in the manual towards the end if they don't have one.
Also, the larger coil, line set over 15' and possibly improper factory charge requires refrigerant conditions to be checked and added.

Why use a NEST?

You did not provide indoor coil info to confirm size.

I am going to say they missed the issue and the indoor metering device may be defective.

 

[comfortdoc]

I find that odd that they never registered it for you to have Carrier not back the manufacturers warranty. To me anyway, that’s like buying a new car and instead of having as an example a 36,000 mile 3 year warranty backed by the manufacturer, the dealer is giving the 36,000 mile warranty and 3 years. I must be missing something here.

It’s likely the salesman dropped the ball on the registration. If they are the largest dealer in Canada they don’t have many issues returning warranty parts. They may not even bother paying the overhead to track it as most parts are not that expensive.

As to the issue, it is probably time to get a service manager involved to track this down and get it resolved.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Worst case this Company may need to talk to a Carrier Technical representative, or even bring one out with them to your residence. You did mention you had videos of the issue. You can show them both ( Contractor and Tech. Rep. )

Also you say that this Contractor holds the warranty, so what happens if the HX fails in 18 years from now or 22 years from now ( if your still residing at your residence ) that HX comes with a limited lifetime HX warranty to original registered owner. Are these guys going to be around in 15+ years from now if you need a new one? What does the Contractors warranty say about the furnace, in particular the HX. You mentioned about the A/C.