[reeze]

I’m very happy to have found this forum as I’m in the uncomfortable position of needing to make a quick decision on a new oil-fired boiler for my small house. I had a no-heat issue almost two weeks ago, and the tech who came out got my boiler working but said he would be back the next day to shut it down - said he had to “condemn” it as it was unsafe to run. We have to replace it ASAP - I’m in the northeast US and nights are getting a little chilly!

As a homeowner and not HVAC specialist I know very little about the ins & outs of boilers – the different types, and especially what’s involved in replacing one. I’m learning things every day but I must say that some oil companies have given me advice that sometimes contradict what another company says, and as a non-pro it gets confusing.

I don’t want to make this post too long (no luck there, sorry) so I’ll start with a few basic Qs. I have two quotes so far, they are $1000 apart. Quite a spread. Both companies are solid, the more expensive one is the one we’ve dealt with for years though they have not been servicing the boiler recently (we have a propane account with them). The dead boiler is a Slant Fin Liberty rated at 117/131K, probably 25 years old. Basic Q #1: company #2 with the $1000 less expensive quote says that an 87K boiler (Burnham MPO86) will do fine for us. The tech measured our baseboards and did some calculations to arrive at this. Company #1 says you should not go to a lower BTU boiler without doing a “heat load assessment.” A third tech guy I called (who is supposed to come this Friday to give us a third quote) says a HLA should not be necessary for us, the baseboard lengths are enough to know what should work. BTW company #1’s quote says “Peerless WBV-03 Cast iron boiler with Beckett burner W/O COIL.” Just a quick aside: the house is a small ranch, about 1600 sq feet. It was damaged in a fire a few years ago and our homeowner’s insurance paid to completely refurb it - it was brought down to studs & beams then got new walls, insulation, baseboards, windows, and a roof. The utility bills have been much lower since then. The boiler does baseboard heat only (we have a propane hot water heater), and it’s a single zone. Anyway, that's Q #1 - heat load assessment; is it really needed if I go with company #2's quote and get a smaller burner than what I had?

Sorry again for the length but if can be indulged one more Q: company #1 says they replace “everything” from the “ceiling down” and to watch out that company #2 is not doing a “slide-in” install. The company #2 tech did talk to me about where they would cut pipes to get the new boiler in, which led me to believe that they were indeed quoting me for a “slide-in.” However, his quote includes a “circulator, new water feeder, air scoop, expansion tank, back-flow preventor, low water cut-off, new smoke pipe to existing chimney and new oil filter.” This sounds to me more than a “slide-in”, am I correct? I really appreciate any replies that help me understand this stuff better – I’m about to write a big check very soon!

 

[Juan Madera]

So, on the coldest days of the year, did the existing boiler cycle off and on? If so, you can likely use a smaller input boiler. That said, it would be good to have at least a quick and dirty heat loss calc done. Basically a whole house loss rather than a room by room. Takes little time to do so.

Ask if either contractor is going to install in a "pumping away" configuration. This is important for quiet and air free operation.

And, you may want to consider adding, or at least accommodating the addition of an indirect water heater and eliminate the LP gas fired one. You will get a a lot better hot water source and probably a bit less expensive than LP to operate.

 

[reeze]

Thanks for the reply Juan. I can't say for sure but I do think the boiler did cycle off & on during cold spells. We were told about $300 for a heat loss calc, not sure if that was a "quick & dirty" or not. I will say this: with our old boiler, after our refurb you could have the heat off on a cool day, come home, turn it on, and in ten minutes the entire house was toasty.

Never heard of the "pumping away" config. I will also admit ignorance of what "air free" means in this context. More Qs to ask the contractors so thanks for that.

As far as the suggestion to use the boiler for our hot water – that's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. IIRC I was told years ago that our LP heater's hot water was somehow routed through the boiler to "assist" though I'm lost on the particulars. Thanks for pointing this out, I will investigate it further and ask about it. I'll admit that we just went with what was in the house at the time we bought it. At that time it was LP for the hot water heater and clothes dryer. Since our fire and refurb, we've added a gas stove to that mix. I've wondered about the economics of this. I seem to remember someone saying having the dryer on LP was better than electric though I forget the reasons why. As far as adding the stove, we definitely wanted to cook with gas. Our hot water heater is about six years old now, so your suggestion to at least allow for the install of an indirect heater is a great one. Thanks for the great advice!

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Make sure you register your boiler for maximum manufacturer warranty.

They should do a combustion efficiency check and leave results with the boiler.

Typically they can downsize the nozzle to lower the BTU ratings, it's not like boilers take only one size.

I have the Peerless WBV-03 with an exposed Becket burner that's going on 15 years old. Only part I had to replace was the primary relay a few years ago. It has a prepurge for a few seconds to clear the chamber before it starts. You can definitely hear it when it starts up like pretty much most oil boilers. Possibly the newer ones have the burner assembly covered. Do not know if the Burnham is any more quieter as it looks to have the burner assembly covered.

 

[reeze]

Thanks Joey. I understand that you can downsize the nozzle to lower BTUs. Is there an advantage to doing this, versus getting a smaller boiler to begin with – or do you want to leave some headroom? Any diff in oil consumption or reliability running a 130K boiler at 80K versus an 87K boiler at 80K? Or am I asking the wrong question (not an impossible concept! :grin2: )

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Not that this is your case, but I suppose if an addition was added the larger downsized would be in order. I know the people installing boilers would rather install the smaller one, cast iron boilers weight a ton. Lol.

Possible the next size down ( if there is one ) on the Peerless would have marginal rating?

Oil boilers are pretty simple in design, and troublefree ( if maintained ) lasts decades for the most part.

 

[reeze]

No chance of our house getting an addition – so I'll ask company #1 if there's a smaller Peerless. Thanks!

It's my understanding that most contractors are tied to one or two specific brands of boilers. I.e., have you been asked to install a brand you're not that familiar with? Or do you go with a specific brand because you have the most positive experience with installs & service?

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I do not install cast iron boilers generally as I'm not much more than a one man show ( the weight alone is just to great ) steel boilers more so, even then not a big part of my business and now semi retired.

Yes I have been asked to quote other brands that I do not carry. I just read/installed system following the install guide as closely as possible, so it took longer to install. Just more out of your comfort zone.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I do not install cast iron boilers generally as I'm not much more than a one man show ( the weight alone is just to great ) steel boilers more so, still not a big part of my business and now semi retired.

Yes I have been asked to quote other brands that I do not carry. I just read/installed system following the install guide as closely as possible, so it took longer to install. Just a little more out of your comfort zone.

 

[reeze]

I see, thanks! From what you say, it does seem that contractors will recommend the equipment they're more familiar with, which makes sense. I was wondering whether contractors have "exclusives" like car dealerships, and work under agreements with certain equipment manufacturers to only install their products.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Contractors for the most part can purchase any brand they want, if they are not set up with a distributor with a brand they normally don't carry the policy may be COD and could easily pay a little/lot more. Also depending on volume of the brand(s) or longevity with that distributed ( as an example ) they carry they may get more favorable pricing, perks etc. I'm speaking in general terms.

 

[STEVEusaPA]

Both of those boilers, or any oil-fired boiler for that matter will be oversized for your house. You definitely can't down fire the MPO (stack temp will be too low) and I wouldn't down fire the Peerless. What you think you're saving on oil you're loosing on efficiency.
I'd install the MPO-84 with a Riello burner, over the Peerless, any day of the week. Whoever cleans your boiler will definitely like the MPO over the Peerless. I have a MPO in my house.
But you should look at the boilers from Energy Kinetics, only sold to qualified installers. American company from New Jersey, excellent support. They do cost more, but provided excellent comfort, super quiet, most efficient, and you can even direct vent it. You can also easily change it from an oil gun to a gas gun.
https://energykinetics.com/

 

[bobboan]

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^.
What Steve said.

Also realize that the smallest oil fired boiler from most all manufacturers is in the 80k btu range. Your house (unless you're in N. Maine) shouldn't need more than about 50k btus. Measuring the radiation is good idea since it makes no sense to install a boiler that has a much higher btu output than what the radiators can extract. But you're probably gonna have less than 80k output on the radiation.

 

[reeze]

Wow, some very interesting stuff here. I'm really glad I started this thread but we're in a tough spot having to move quickly. I wonder what these contractors will say when I tell them I got some, well, "conflicting" info! That'll be a conversation starter. :grin2:

I checked out the Energy Kinetics web site – very impressive, I will give a call tomorrow. Willing to bet none of the folks I've been talking to install them but you never know, I guess. They do have a pretty convincing case for their design vs cast iron.

So... seeing as my house shouldn't need more than 50K BTUs, I wonder why it had that big 130K+ Slant Fin? Was the contractor recommending the smaller boiler telling the truth when he said that "those were the smallest ones you could get at the time"?

I had actually looked into converting to LP with the new burner, but the irony is that my old boiler failed the very day I got my oil tank filled – so I would have to pay to have it pumped out and receive no credit for the oil (at least from the contractors I've talked to so far). To eat over $500 like that is a pretty bitter pill to swallow, not to mention the LP prices in my area are rather high anyway. The contractor I talked to also said an LP boiler competitive with oil would need to be a "high efficiency" type and the initial cost would be a decent amount more than his quote for the oil-fired boiler (which was already not too cheap at $7800).

Thank you to all again, this is great info! I really appreciate it.

 

[BaldLoonie]

Go to heatinghelp.com and use their find a contractor feature. Those boys are hydronic heating experts and if you get one of them, you'll get a good job. If not, rotsa ruck as Scooby would say.

 

[reeze]

Thanks for the tip! I just went to heatinghelp & put my zip code in. No hits until I get to a 50-mile radius, that seems too far away. I assume one wants a more local co. in case of any issues that require an emergency call.

Did I mention I'll need to work with a contractor that can offer help with financing? Both my quotes so far are from companies that offer in-house financing. One of them also seems to have an arrangement with a bank for more flexible plans – I assume we will have our credit scores pulled of course. I think we can put about half up front, maybe a little more.

 

[BALloyd]

My only piece of advice is to get a bunch of space heaters to buy you some time. Rushing decisions like this usually never ends well based on some of the stories we see here.

You can always sell the space heaters later.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

 

[reeze]

Funny you should mention space heaters. Our propane account is with the same company that condemned our boiler. They put a tap on our 100-gal propane tank, fed a hose into our house through a window, and hooked up this small ventless heater – a Rinnai FC824. It's heating our entire house! I had no idea these things existed. I'm just amazed. It's small, light, and silent. As I understand it we aren't getting charged for it (obviously we're paying for the propane it's using). I wonder how charitable they'll be if we decide to go with a different company for the new boiler (they are the ones proposing the Peerless)!

 

[Bazooka Joe]

The Peerless quote is more cost ( bigger unit ) so possible along with it being bigger they threw in a couple bucks for the heater use and set up labor cost?

This is my little story with the Energy Kinetic system. I was interested in that system and inquired about it before I choose the Peerless. As a HVAC Contractor they would not sell me a unit unless I took a upwards of a 8 hour class in another state ( hours could be less ) . As their set up is more detailed than the simple 85%+ boilers. I think another thing what changed my mind was they certainly had generic parts on their units but they also have specialized parts unique to their units, ( at least in that time time frame ) to me meaning a longer down time if those parts failed. As you mentioned the two quotes you received you mentioned chances they do not carry that brand ( Energy Kinetic ) I'm going to say the same thing, as I doubt you will pick up a yellow page add and call 10 Companies and get 10 yes responses unlike with a standard boiler.

There was no particular reason I choose the Peerless, over another brand as they all basically operate the same sequence of operation.

Looks like a great product thou, myself I like uncomplicated very reliable ( proven by many decades old design ) easy to set up boilers that any heating Tech. can service and tune up.

Anyway that's my :.02: worth.

 

[pecmsg]

If you already have LP might consider a High Efficiency Condensing Boiler. They come in smaller sizes, Financing and rebates are available.