[sysint]

Well, there are rumors out there that you will have another LON vendor out there to choose from. In the meantime, there is also Smart Controls. You can probably buy them direct with no issues.

If you want to buy the Honeywell LCBS XL10's and then put Loytec servers or touchscreens on top you can do that also.

There is also Sysmik. They have a line of LON based controllers, some of which have the capability for higher I/O counts than Distech, Tridium, Hwell or JCI and you can buy them also.

So, that LON gives you access to H-well, Distech, Smart Controls, Loytec, to start with all with no real quotas. So, you can have a ton of scalability. Actually, add an OPC client and it's more scalable then anyone out there.

 

[sysint]

Well, maybe I'm wrong about the pricing rule. But your pricing is a lie. You're doing the same thing another member does, spreading lies and disinformation....

Maybe you could just come out with it.

Here's the way I see it. With the product you use, you have the following:

• Licensing Fees
• Upgrade Fees
• Recurring software fees
• Rules and requirements to open to other contractors (an owner having to write a letter asking permission to open the box is staggeringly RETARDED. It's the owners hardware as they PAID for it... at least that's the way normal people think.)
• Quotas
• Restricted access by various manufacturers (ie Hwell)

To further complicate that you have something like a 10 page price sheet for various options including "soft" products and supervisors.

We have NONE of those requirements and our config and visualization tools are FREE and easy to use. The average HVAC guy can make pages in the touchscreen or the servers. EASY. If you don't like our free tools, using someone else's front end it OK. We don't hold you back.

So it's simple with our products, you buy and and you use it. No strings attached. We sell hardware, not software. Your manufacturer's model is really software sales and the list of soft costs already is a mile long.

Maybe it's just me but I like the straightforward approach much better.

 

[sysint]

Its really simple.

You cannot deliver the flexibility or deliver at the same tier of layering...for many solutions they offer. Legacy stuff is backwards enough with out expanding the backwardness with half assed solutions.

Lets just say ....you get what you pay for. I still want to see the 1/4 cost "L"-boxes in writing.

LON, BACnet, Modbus, Mbus. Complete AST (Alarm Schedule Trend) with email capability. Free software.

If you want to pay for some software you can throw Wonderware, Iconics, Inet Supervisor, Plexus and/or Tridium on top (to name a few).

The hardware is less cost than an ilon100 which is close to a third the cost of a JACE 6 at the most common contractor multiplier with extended memory and two LON daughter boards. This is before we start talking about supervisors and soft JACE's on larger sites.

Granted, your box has extra SOFTWARE (exclusively and only) for LON networks so I guess you might want to consider that an advantage in some instances. Our config tool works within or without LNS. Further, the same config tool is used for Modbus, Mbus and BACnet.

Also, we do not provide drivers (illegal or legal) for all the legacy garbage out there. Sooner or later you pay. Do you have consistent cost analysis on integrating proprietary and legacy protocols and hardware? Something tells me all you do is defer some costs and introduce a completely new cost structure. When you toss down your box you pay now and later. Continuously actually.

Don't you think you would just like to be able to buy something and actually OWN it free and clear?

 

[sysint]

..they can....at a price.

Supervisors can talk to any software release Jace at equal or below with no issues. A certain new feature may not work with the old software Jace, ( fox tunneling for example) but it will still work as at the Niagara level.

You started all this again. I'm just defending a customer after you put the hammer down and started pimping your box... (again)...

"at a price" -- No doubt. Constantly paying. Can the owner have permission to actually OWN their box or do they need to write a please, please letter to Tridium just to open up their box? How ridiculous is that? Completely if you ask me.

Download the software from our website. It's FREE and available. Get any firmware upgrades for FREE also. Download the firmware from our website.

I don't advertise we do everything your favorite box does. However, we do about 80% for 50% of the cost with no strings attached. No Supervisors required. When do I need to buy a Supervisor with your stuff? Why do they call it a Supervisor? What is it necessary that it supervises? Buy it and use it and you don't need a week long training just to get familiar with the basics.

 

[sysint]

I don't, but I intend to try it. I've resisted Niagara because, for my small market of mostly small buildings, it seems like overkill, because the barriers to entry are not insubstantial and because people I know personally who use the product say the licensing issues are a PIA. So for me in my market, I've been successfully using iLONs for several years. I like them okay. My customers like what I do with them. But I'd like something more capable and less buggy and the LINX products look like they could fill the bill. They're easy to buy, look pretty easy to set up and won't break the bank. I really don't understand the apparent hostility here toward the product from the AX guys.

Personally, I used ilons in the past. I liked the basic idea of them and had the same issues as you probably are working around. So, to make a comparison, the LINX is less buggy, and if you need bacnet you can have it. Plus, we aren't going down the route of being dependent on someone else for web development.

" I know personally who use the product say the licensing issues are a PIA. " -- Are you sure? Freddy seems to think this is no big deal...

 

[sysint]

How do you handle tech support is it free? Or do you charge 200 bucks an hour to make up for all your freeness?

Another advantage. Tech support is free.

Thats funny... A week wouldnt get you started...maybe thats my point all along. Anything a average end user can totally figure out in a week...probably does not offer that much.

Full drink.... Tridium Kool Aid. Refreshing? I'm saying a week gets you farther with our product because it's easier to use and setup. Probably takes a couple days to figure out how your box is licensed...

 

[sysint]

Sys, the Supervisor runs the same software the embedded JACE runs. The only difference is the platform, and that's the beauty of JAVA - platform independence. You can run a supervisor on Windows or Linux. I don't know why they call it a "Supervisor." That's the marketing dept getting in the way.

Embedded platforms lack long term storage, so a Supevisor allows for aggregation of trend data from subordinate JACES in a centralized location. You can serve up the UI from there if you'd like, or you can distribute the graphics across JACEs, it's up to you. A supervisor is not required!

You can do all of your scheduling from there, or from any web browser that can point there. You can support as many users as you can possibly please, simultaneously. You can route all of your alarms there too. The Supervisor is also your workbench programming tool, yes free and clear (the license never expires). Software updates within the same build are free (say from 3.3.22 to 3.3.28). Customers upgrade to a new release only if they want a new feature.

Not to mention all of the enterprise drivers available.
Another great feature: it talks to all Loytec products be it OPC/LON/BACnet, whatever.
Also, I can remotely assist any of my customers from anywhere.

Again, I'm not a salesman. What you hear from me here is my experience working with the software. No B.S.

Thanks. So really the Tridium experience is really software and not about hardware. So if I'm not using a supervisor and distributing graphics across multiple JACE's is this why I see some sites moving very slowly and why some owners are complaining about performance?


"Another great feature: it talks to all Loytec products be it OPC/LON/BACnet, whatever." Of Course. That's the way we design our products. Otherwise we would be a SOFTWARE company and need to get money for that.

 

[sysint]

Freddy, I only work with what people tell me and what I see. If you think I'm not being honest about that we have an entirely different issue.

I've got one Tridium house I think I get honest answers from so I'll call them up on some of your claims. Personally I think you dream a bit because you are obviously infatuated. Does Tridium buy you dates too?

Digo, I'd certainly like to stop in when I'm out and go over the pros and cons. Sounds like you have an honest perception of the capabilities and limitations.

So I guess I'm done for today with others trying to paint everything with a JACE...

 

[sysint]

That's why Tridium designed the framework. See how many manufacturers' devices we can talk to, regardless of how well designed they are.

They designed it because they can captialize on a fractured market and propagate dead end legacy projects. They can even foster the creation of new "legacy" networks based on their framework.

Now, should the bacnet guys EVER get their act together and make a common network and integration tool how important is the Tridium going to be? I think they will need the next thing, similar to Echelon. However, you will note that nobody jumped on Pyxos. Sedona is the Tridium Pyxos, however, seems like they will get a chance to put it out to market.

Meanwhile JCI and the other big manufacturers are simply sitting back and waiting. They have the money and the muscle. Plus they can all take a very small percentage of the Tridium experience until something else arrives. It's co-operating competition at it's best.

 

[sysint]

Also...why don't you go reread the OPs question..show me where your stuff has any relevance, ....

I was wondering if I could get some info? I'm looking for a product to do some projects that i have pending. these are my choices due to the fact i can get them through a distribution network and am not tied to high by ins and sales quotas. Any help would be great

As was brought up by another poster, we have NO "buy ins and sales quotas". Full front end capability. Take a look at Smart Controls. Really inexpensive controllers. That makes a full system, extremely scalable.

So, much more relevant than Tridium with it's buy in costs, and forced training costs. The guy will need between one and two dozen small jobs to clear the difference. Plus add the cost difference for the product and it's probably closer to 40 small projects before a Tridium choice breaks even. Since the projects are new he need not worry about supporting some legacy dead protocol.

So the real question is why you are still here pimping since your product choice really has no relevance here in this thread.

 

[sysint]

He was informed his choices are greater than he thought originally.

 

[sysint]

I just think it's a good thing that a footstep follower of the Legion of Tridium is here to set the board straight and force them into submission.

Now go back to your leaders and report the disturbance. View attachment 21782

 

[sysint]

I like that the JCI stuff seems to be scalable to some degree the lcbs seems like it could hold you back on larger projects.

In response to your SECOND post - Actually only if you keep to using Lonspec and LonStation. Using standard LON routing you can become every bit as scalable as anyone else in the industry. More so actually, because you can get access to other LON vendors products without any buy ins or fees.

 

[sysint]

Lets just say ....you get what you pay for. I still want to see the 1/4 cost "L"-boxes in writing.

Send off a company email and I'll get right on it.

 

[sysint]

Once again for the slow and straw grasping salesmen..

Let's be clear here Freddy. Sales is the most recent thing I'm doing. I've got a long history of being out in the field, can put on some tools and I know I'm not going to be the tired guy at the end of the day...you will.

I think you know you aren't finding a more straightforward "sales" guy. Further, that's the primary reason I was picked for this position with this company. That was their number one requirement. That says much about that company if you ask me.

Talk to your partner in crime about it. I have already defended his comments to someone else on this thread and I talked to him directly at the AHR show. Whenever you Tboxers get your story straight, than that's what you will get from me. So, rather than call some other Tridium firm a bunch of desk jockeys...

I didn't realize every other Tridium contractor were the idiots... Sorry. You are higher up in the Legion of Tridium than I thought originally.

 

[sysint]

I did not call anyone idiots. People in those positions..(Like you) get so caught up with the X's and O's...they forget who inevitably pays the checks...try grasping what they want at their level...not what you want to force down their throat, Sorry sys, but most people don't have the money to be ripping out and starting fresh. As far as OPC..... just because you can do something doesn't mean you should with the best long term interest of the client in mind.

The big Company co-op you mention..may be true?..if it is?...what should that tell you?

In that case Freddy, for existing N2 buy a S4 and add LON devices in the future. S4 doesn't have the buy-ins or quotas like Tboxes do. Then add our servers. Since our servers don't have any requirements and are less expensive they meet the goal of the user really well. What are those goals?

Alarming
Scheduling
Trending
Remote Access
Visualization
Easy to setup with free tools
NO Buy In's or Quotas
Less expensive
The owner doesn't need a permission slip made out to the manufacturer to allow another contractor to operate the box.

So we meet all the users goals. That's the X's and O's of the person writing the check. Less expensive and more freedom.

Not forcing anything. It's real simple where the force feed comes from. It comes from anyone who wants a contract or charges fees for various scenarios to keep them in the game. Why don't they simply allow anyone to buy their box? If it's so impressive and functional why can't anybody buy it?

 

[sysint]

Now you are grasping at straws. Support is available. Are you telling me your Tridium support group has to be physically onsite for you?

Further, to be honest our products are straightforward and easy to use. Very little support required when something works as intended without setting a bunch of sophisticated parameters.

 

[sysint]

Well that was interesting. You guys went off in a totally differant direction. I need something simple to install and program that has internet capabilities as most of my jobs are smaller in scale (a couple of rtus, boilers, chillers, & zoning etc.)I do not know if i could justify training a guy on the ax platform due to limited jobs, and true lon programming(I did speak with smart controls and they said it is a tedious task).

Don't forget if YOU aren't the guy with the certification it walks with your guy should he leave your company. Perhaps Freddy wants to deny this...

Simple to install and has internet capabilities--- That's us. Download our free tools from our website and I'll walk you through a Honeywell XL10 controller to show you how easy it is.

As far as the programming side, I think what you mean by "true LON programming" is the Smart controls method of programming controllers directly. You can use Distech or whatever else you like that is simple. That's for your chiller plants and boilers and AHU's. For everything else it's simple to setup. And our servers are simple to make pages.

I guess you just have to try it out. What is definitely not for you is the Tbox, although somebody here can't seem to stop talking about it like it's some sort of option for you.

Freddy, we have about the lowest cost servers out there. They are easy to work with, very scalable, and don't require any upfront costs. NONE. So, I don't care to argue about just how much Tridium costs you or not, or how much the REQUIRED training costs.... We have NONE of those costs and our product is less expensive. Further, the owner doesn't need to make out a Permission Slip to Tridium to have another contractor use the product. You buy a Loytec product and you own it free and clear. Your top Loytec tech leaves the company and you can still buy our product without re-certifying somebody or making sure somebody certified is on staff.

 

[sysint]

That sure sounds like a line in the sand. Good luck with that. I think it's easy to see who is relying on basic instincts...

After years as a tech guy and former integrator I now am doing sales. I understand what it takes to install a job and what it takes to keep people educated in product, along with updates and fees. I have familiarity with many LON vendors, Honeywell, Carrier and Trane throughout the years.

Sometimes simple is more and it's difficult to achieve when you deal with multiple protocols. So, Loytec isn't going after every proprietary protocol out there and we certainly aren't going after contractors who always seem to want "one more option". Typically they are more a pain then they are worth because they haven't thought things through properly and end up being a big disappointment.

As far as Loytec goes, only an extremely uneducated person would say something bad about them as they have a very good history and you will find their products in some of the largest installations worldwide. Take a look at the new Dallas stadium - Honeywell controls with Loytec routers. Hmmm.... wonder why there is no Tridium in that high profile project?

Facts are the company is very technically competent and concentrates on making quality devices. I have very little technical support issues given the territory size I cover. It's a testament to the quality of the products.

 

[sysint]

Freddy- better stop. You have obviously lost it now. Your last post was stupid and you are losing credibility fast. You had no business going after simsd and you got nothing here.