There are many, many parameters to be entered for load calcs. If the contractor was using Wrightsoft, the first thing to check is which version of Manual 'J' he used for the calculation. J-7 needs less adjustment but isn't as refined as J-8. Wrightsoft allows use of either one. If his is all set up properly, he may be identifying losses that your software doesn't know exist.

So if you're both designing against the same HTM's, you should come out with the same answer. Math is math. I suspect that one of you has some incorrect HTM info in the data. However, you cannot determine his design criteria from the Short Room Summary or from the Job Summary. In order to compare, you'd need the Long Form, then you'd need Manual 'J' to decipher the HTM's.

 

Heat Load

I purchased HVAC-Calc recently and, to make sure I'm using it correctly, I entered data for some apartments that had previously been calculated by an HVAC contractor using WrightSoft.

While my heat gains in HVAC-Calc are pretty close to WrightSoft's, my heat losses are 40-50% higher.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

For most residences, I could estimate < ~ 20% in < 4 minutes given the appropriate parameters.

_____ Math is Math ...
Q = U * A * dT
______________

Calc of the Infiltration rate can frequently be a game changer.
Input may range from 0.2 -- 1.5 ACH.

 

Dan Is Correct

For most residences, I could estimate < ~ 20% in < 4 minutes given the appropriate parameters.

_____ Math is Math ...
Q = U * A * dT
______________

Calc of the Infiltration rate can frequently be a game changer.
Input may range from 0.2 -- 1.5 ACH.

Yep,

Designer Dan is correct.

Math is math, but you don't know the inputs. With infiltration rates from .2 to 1.5 your loads change dramatically. Kinda shows how the whole Manual J thing is more of a dog and pony show than anything else. Also, your guesses for duct/loss/gain/leakage will move your numbers a lot as well.

Only one who's loads are correct is Beenthere, He has some mysterious powers that give him insight into all the guesses made that make his loads spot on. Just Ask him.

Many of the gang here will tell you to always do a calc, what they don't tell you is, that any ten of them will get ten different answers on the same house.

Funny,

ACBD

 

Thanks for your responses.
It was Manual J 7th edition. (I should have specified that HVAC-Calc's heat losses are greater than WrightSoft's, rather than the other way around.)

I understand that math is math, just making sure that HVAC-Calc's math = WrightSoft's math. ;-)

While I realize there's more info on the Long Form, I just don't have access to it. I did manually enter the same ACH, etc.

 

Sell or buy multi stage equipment...... Just sayin..... most load calcs determine only the extreems. Most of the time you need considerably less

 

Come-on Bad Dog, Meet us partway...

AC Bad Dog; IMO, with all the latest Home Audit instrument technology, an experienced technician can get close enough to make things work for equipment sizing duct design & room air flows...

You're citing worse case scenarios... & degrading applied H-VAC Science...

I am not saying you are wrong, - but perhaps just a bit extreme on the negative side concerning new data collecting, science & math based H-VAC application based techniques...

Would you concede just a little, & meet us at least partway?

 

Fair Enough

AC Bad Dog; IMO, with all the latest Home Audit instrument technology, an experienced technician can get close enough to make things work for equipment sizing duct design & room air flows...

You're citing worse case scenarios... & degrading applied H-VAC Science...

I am not saying you are wrong, - but perhaps just a bit extreme on the negative side concerning new data collecting, science & math based H-VAC application based techniques...

Would you concede just a little, & meet us at least partway?

Mr. Udarrell,

It is true I am somewhat jaded. I have participated in this use of software to justify the sale for over 30 years.I am Guilty.I also know better than almost all of us the lies built into our equipment performance metrics as my team built the AHRI upload. Working with Utilities and seeing first hand operating loads vs contractor "sizing" has not helped my attitude.

Simply put, contractors learn how to manipulate their toys to give them the answers they want. Almost everyone is in some way guilty of this. Unfortunately I have been confronted by the realities. So now what. Can we restore some credibility? Our customer looks at our industry like if they still have their silverware the installation was successful. DateLine shows us ripping off grandma every year.

You are correct in that with all your Home Auditing Stuff, Inferred Cameras, Laser beams, smoke bombs, Blower Doors, etc, etc, you can dramatically lower the tolerances on the guesses you make. Those that use these tools, know as I do, just how much off those that do not use them can be. For example, the guys who use blower doors support my positions as to just how much variation there is in ACH numbers and how silly it is to think of one's load calculations as being "correct" without testing.

Now let us move beyond that. The cost structure of a small HVAC sales and/or Service Business cannot support all the tools, all the training, or all the time it takes to treat each house as a science project prior to getting a deposit check. I simply cannot understand the rational for driving 1/2 an hour each way, spending another 2 hours using all these toys to narrow your inputs, spending another Hour gaming your load or Auditing Software to come out, and yet you haven't sold anything yet. How is this sustainable on any scale?

Can we agree on the need to reduce their cost structures, compress timeframes, develop retailing mindsets, and not start doing science projects until we have a check. The world is getting quite difficult for small contractors to compete for the limited supply of quality customers.

Yes, I also concur that HVAC companies had best understand and recommend Attic insulation and Sealing, new duct jobs, and home tightening, or face losing their customers to those companies that know this is how to best serve the customer and also understand this is where the next wave of communist money is coming from.

The best thing you can do for many customers is tighten, seal, replace, then zone, and modulate. You can make me very comfortable. But lets start with a fresh mindset, not some 30 year old spreadsheet ritual that takes our eye off the ball.

Thanks you,

AC BAD DOG

 

I find that Wrightsoft is pretty complicated, there is a learning curve. How many had he done before. It takes some time to imput every parameter in the software. It could be junk in junk out. Building orentation and glazing are very important. Make sure your locations are the same.

 

wRIGHT Soft

I find that Wrightsoft is pretty complicated, there is a learning curve. How many had he done before.

It takes some time to imput every parameter in the software.

It could be junk in junk out. Building orentation and glazing are very important. Make sure your locations are the same.

Wrightsoft should take ~ 17 minutes to perform a Block Load (a.k.a. whole house) analysis.

One DO NOT start from scratch.
Use of one model from a set of templates to match the particular situation GREATLY simplifies the effort.

Orientation should take about 30 to 80 seconds to adjust.

 

Don't do simple block loads, draw out all rooms, consider flooring , glazing, insulation etc.
In my area no two houses the same. And i do a manual D to make sure ducts are sized properly. Orentation only takes 30 seconds, but you have to get it right. This all takes time. 17 Min for a simple house YES.

 

Block Load for BID



Manuals J refined, D, T, S and drawings can take another day or MORE BUT AFTER Order confirmation.

 

Energy Star 3 coming

Energy Star 3 is coming, and hopefully the home owners will quickly recognize the benefit of buying EnergyStar HVAC like they have for appliances. This means that they will be demanding it and this whole discussion about costs of doing it will no longer be needed, since everyone in the HVAC business will be using Manual J.

Energy Star 3 will require Manual J calcs, and the HVAC contractors will be required to go to a one day EnergyStar training. I know this will upset a lot of HVAC folks that aren't currently using Manual J, but from the verifier and energy auditor perspective, this is great! I like to see people buying a system that isn't over-sized and over-priced because of size, which I still see frequently. Homes are getting much tighter and rule-of-thumb calculations don't work any more.

Pam

 

Energy Star 3 is coming, and hopefully the home owners will quickly recognize the benefit of buying EnergyStar HVAC like they have for appliances. This means that they will be demanding it and this whole discussion about costs of doing it will no longer be needed, since everyone in the HVAC business will be using Manual J.

Energy Star 3 will require Manual J calcs, and the HVAC contractors will be required to go to a one day EnergyStar training. I know this will upset a lot of HVAC folks that aren't currently using Manual J, but from the verifier and energy auditor perspective, this is great! I like to see people buying a system that isn't over-sized and over-priced because of size, which I still see frequently. Homes are getting much tighter and rule-of-thumb calculations don't work any more.

Pam

Pam I hope your right, however as of rite now there are only twelve contractors in the whole US that are ACCA QA certified. We are the ONLY one west of Texas!:grin2:

 

Good stuff here guys!

IMO - A good customer interview and analysis of the energy bill should point you in the direction of more analysis needed, or easy recommendation.

Got comfort issues?
Equipment ever run continuously?
When it does, house comfortable?
What's your annual heating spend per SF?

Once you get to $1, time to pull the blower door out. Under 50cents, gotta cost/benefit your time and the homeowners.

If they don't have massive green intentions, pat them on the back and start talking about solar panels or some other investment. Below 50cent psf, good chance solar will be a better energy investment.

To the OP, if you've lived in the house, and paid attention to how it operates you should be able to somewhat reconcile actual experience to the calculated model.

All these tools are simply attempts to narrow likelyhood of making a mistake. Do all deer hunters use scopes? Do those who don't bag deer? How "in the ball park" do you want to be? In NY a homeowner who DOESN'T get an audit before performing work is an idiot, the state pays for the service. In other states I think a good interview, like a good physician's physical, should uncover the need for further testing.

Without a full audit including Blower Door, it's darts at a dartboard.

 

Good stuff here guys!

In other states I think a good interview, like a good physician's physical, should uncover the need for further testing.
[/B]
Without a full audit including Blower Door, it's darts at a dartboard.

Use darts, just like Doctors Do. !

 

Some people think HVAC-Calc pads heat loss a bit.

 

Guys,

I have been watching this go back and forth on a couple threads. I seem to have no problems with houses when I go with the non scientific way i was taught. I use 2-stage half the time, single the other. I like the idea of the science of the load calcs as well, but it seems difficult to pin point everything. I guess what I am wondering is this, when you guys who swear by the load calcs, how far do you go on the estimates to get it perfect. I live in a highly populated area, with a lot of compition. If I were to set up a duct blaster, blower door test, or any of the various tests, I would lose so much time on just conducting a proper estimate, before I even get the job. How much time do you put in to an estimate? Furthermore, after I preform all these tests, and suggest all sorts of stuff to make it work better, but it is going to cost thousands more, people just think it is smoke. What % of jobs do you actually get from all the work you put into the estimate

 

Guys,

I have been watching this go back and forth on a couple threads. I seem to have no problems with houses when I go with the non scientific way i was taught. I use 2-stage half the time, single the other.

I like the idea of the science of the load calcs as well, but it seems difficult to pin point everything.

I guess what I am wondering is this, when you guys who swear by the load calcs, how far do you go on the estimates to get it perfect. I live in a highly populated area, with a lot of competition.

If I were to set up a duct blaster, blower door test, or any of the various tests, I would lose so much time on just conducting a proper estimate, before I even get the job.

How much time do you put in to an estimate? Furthermore, after I preform all these tests, and suggest all sorts of stuff to make it work better, but it is going to cost thousands more, people just think it is smoke.

What % of jobs do you actually get from all the work you put into the estimate?

Somehow I lost what I wrote? So I'll try to write it again.

Maybe we need separate (non-HVAC) contractors to do some of the Home Energy Audits, manual J, S, & D, etc.

Those contractors would need to be decoupled from HVAC contractors...
The customers could then call HVAC contractors to get bids.

IMO; Small HVAC contractors need a level playing field...

 

Darrell, that's what our company does. NYSERDA has a referral process that incentivizes partnerships between contractors.

We perform audit, build energy model, build & price improvements, run cost benefit calc and deliver the reports. If homeowner wants we can help facilitate implementation of our design through BPI Accredited hvac & shell contractor partners that we are confident will do the work we recommend to the level of quality and service we expect.

JA, before NY decided to pay for audits my job was to sell them. I sold them for $350 each. My average job was between $15 & 16k. Most of the cost of all the improvements are covered by NY incentives and monthly energy savings.

So yes, people will pay to understand what is going on with their homes. You wouldn't sell a Prius to someone who only drives 100 miles a year. First step is to look at the annual energy use (miles driven). That tells whether there is a little or a lot of savings opportunity.

 

I really don't think many of my customers are going to be interested in spending ten grand so they can save thirty-five bucks a month for the next 10-15 years just to do it all over again. I'm just sayin'...

 

Sounds like you prefer to make assumptions to doing the numbers.

I understand, get er done, right? Besides, not your energy bill...

 

Like I said, this industry has there heads up there ass!
Very shortly there will be third parties doing all the testing and the HVAC industry will be doing all dumb work.:.02::gah:

 

That won't happen to the guys who care about their clients energy bills, just the ones treating the job as something they want to finish as quick n easy as possible.

 

Ted, how many companies in the HVAC industry have your knowledge or testing equipment? 2%?

 

Jim, it doesn't have to start with a comprehensive home assessment, a good questionnaire and the energy history can qualify or disqualify the homeowner pretty nicely.

Bad credit, do not continue.

3000 sf and $130 gas and electric budget bill, do not continue.

Don't care about high bills, do not continue.

Don't get that shaving $100 month off your bill makes $13,000 worth of improvements free, do not continue.

Money, opportunity, pain, intellectual capacity, need to make sure all exist before spending time performing diagnostic testing that, in itself is not a profit center. This can be a simple script that the technician follows before recommending a "closer look at what might be done about those unpleasantly high bills and discomfort issues"

 

That's a great idea rsa, what do you see as the job description and workscope?

 

Professionally, it should be known as the




- Residential HVAC Project Specification - detailing the HVAC, IAQ & controls equipment with cut sheets or precise performance measures and the installation parameters with layout drawings.

:.02:

This is NOT a new concept or practice.

 

Probably 90% of my customers are NOT in the market for a whole house energy audit, replacing every window in their home, and having thousands of dollars of "testing" done. They simply want there house cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

So what would you have happen, these people FORCED into having a bunch of stuff done against their will? NICE! Can we get a big fat government program to go with that? Well of course....

 

It's a win/win paradigm...



I foresee Home Audits coming soon; we either get on the ship or swim without a life jacket. When informed & educated customers want to save on their utility costs!

All it does is provide the customer with options; replacing windows is high dollar & may not, among many other options, be a good payback choice.

They don't have to do anything they don't want to do; audits just provide them with informed choices.

Audits help to move clients toward good choice energy reduction actions that they otherwise would never realize they ought to do. Audits can generate incomes & savings for everyone involved...

Home Audits can be good for the economy, jobs, generating tax revenues, & getting us less dependent on foreign oil imports; it's a win/win policy paradigm...

 

I am NOT a windows, doors and insulation sales company!! I am an HVAC contractor.

I do NOT need (nor want) my customers to be FORCED by the government or another industry into buying what I am selling. My products and services stand very well on their own. People hire me so that they get what they want, a cool comfortable house in the summer and a warm cozy house in the winter. If I don't provide what the customer wants I go out of business.

Those that want to have an energy audit, replace windows and doors, and add insulation go to those industries. If you feel the need to MANDATE (require) them to come to you, it is either because your product or services are not wanted OR you are not appealing enough to the customers in your market to make it in your business without the government FORCING people to buy your goods or services.

Educate the customer and let them decide! FREELY! No manipulation, no government mandates, no subsidies. Just plain old fashioned American FREEDOM!!

 

Well Said, and I totally agree.

I am NOT a windows, doors and insulation sales company!! I am an HVAC contractor.

I do NOT need (nor want) my customers to be FORCED by the government or another industry into buying what I am selling. My products and services stand very well on their own. People hire me so that they get what they want, a cool comfortable house in the summer and a warm cozy house in the winter. If I don't provide what the customer wants I go out of business.

Those that want to have an energy audit, replace windows and doors, and add insulation go to those industries. If you feel the need to MANDATE, it is either because you product or services are not wanted OR you are not appealing enough to the customers in your market to make it without the government FORCING people to buy your good or services.

Educate the customer and let them decide! FREELY! No manipulation, no government mandates, no subsidies. Just plain old fashioned American FREEDOM!!

Yes, Yes and Yes, Butt,

The Government is already in your Business! For the last 18 months we have been letting our children pay $1500.00 toward our customers' purchase of a new AC system. We have already gone communist in HVAC. Our Industry leaders our currently begging to maintain this status in next years budget. The kids still pay up to $500.00 a system even today. So the government shifts the natural market forces. What would happen to the geo business if they took away the 30% tax credit our children pay for these systems.

The current batch of unfunded Federal Mandates are shifting toward Energy Auditors. This simply means those who get the right Badges and Certifications will have access to these customers and the associated
Communist rebate money, Audit money, low interest loan money, channeled through states and utilities.

I can not tell you how many meetings I have sat in where these new players discuss us HVAC guys as a bunch of dumb bubba's and the reason houses are so bad in first place. They are here to save the customer from us. They are smarter that us.

Just keep your eye open and watch out. Many of those who present themselves as wholesome Do Gooders are very much businessmen setting themselves up to steal your best high end consumers. Much of this business has already been lost. You just can't see the customers you never met.You can't see all the big fish that were caught upstream from you.

ACBD

 

Spoken like a fellow who wants to sell products rather than solutions.

Spoken like a fellow who would sell a customer a screwdriver to hammer in a nail because you are "NOT a windows, doors and insulation sales company!!"

Because "windows, doors and insulation sales company!!" are the bad guy, you have nobody to recommend when the customer really needs a hammer. Because you so fervently reject the other side of the field you work in, you don't even understand the solutions further insuring your improper solution get's recommended and possibly implemented.

You personally may not do this personally, but your mindset does. I see it all the time.

Not sure where people are forced to buy things they don't want. Is that happening in your state?

 

Spoken like a fellow who wants to sell products rather than solutions.

Spoken like a fellow who would sell a customer a screwdriver to hammer in a nail because you are "NOT a windows, doors and insulation sales company!!"

Because "windows, doors and insulation sales company!!" are the bad guy, you have nobody to recommend when the customer really needs a hammer. Because you so fervently reject the other side of the field you work in, you don't even understand the solutions further insuring your improper solution get's recommended and possibly implemented.

That takes one hell of an assumption on your part! You assume that I do not recommend that my customers seek a windows, doors or insulation contractor when that is what they need. Fact is there are VERY few houses (if any) that could not benefit from the latest and greatest. If you put new windows in 10 years ago there is a better window out there now. If you have double pane, triple pane will save you some money on your energy bill. Very few homes cannot profit from MORE insulation than they already have. But that is not what I get hired to do; I get hired to install a central heating and air conditioning system.

If I have a customer that has little or no insulation in the ceilings or floors, or you can hear the windows rattle with the wind, I educate them and allow them to make their own decision (don’t need an energy audit for any of it – paid for by taxpayers or not; nothing is free nor paid for by the state). But at the end of the day, it is the home owners decision (for now).

Not sure where people are forced to buy things they don't want. Is that happening in your state?

HISTORY! It is subsidized now (you even say in NY the state pays for it – that is a subsidized industry). Give it time, NY and CA will make it a mandate to have a whole house energy audit performed before I am ALLOWED to install the equipment.

NEWS FLASH!! Not every home owner in NY wants an energy audit! Does that make THEM an idiot if they don’t get one done just because it is FREE (excuse me... forcibly paid for by taxpayers)?

 

How do you explain the outlook of the ant to grasshoppers.

When you don't recognize an imbalanced system, one that makes energy prices falsely low through subsidy, tax breaks, and placement of taxation elsewhere...

When you look at spending money on non-renewables as the attractive option to investing in better equipment (even if it means cash flow break even or POSITIVE), and tax incentives as an attempt to correct the imbalance and correct our cultural short term perspective problem...

...the deficient equipment may be above the neck, and unfixable.

Even if the intellectual capacity to see bigger pictures were to exist, economic discussion is only so much hot air if he recipient enters with forgone conclusions and complete rigidity of belief.

 

This imbalanced system exists in our food economy too. When you allow imbalance in one area the whole system gets out of whack. Applicable to homes, applicable to economies. If anyone has seen the movie "food Inc" they get this.

Low energy prices and corn subsidies put incentive into using corn for all our food. Meat is fattened with corn. Americans are fattened with corn. Medical costs skyrocket because corn products, due to subsidy, make healthier alternatives uncompetitive.

Free society?! We eat food that makes us sick and become enslaved to a broken healthcare system that has bloated costs that are directly correlated back to our terrible diets.

This broken, imbalanced system is due to subsidized, very cheap energy costs.

Food Inc. Does a really nice job of illustrating how corporitization in conjunction with input cost imbalance has turned our food economy into a Frankenstein.

 

This imbalanced system exists in our food economy too. When you allow imbalance in one area the whole system gets out of whack. Applicable to homes, applicable to economies. If anyone has seen the movie "food Inc" they get this.

Low energy prices and corn subsidies put incentive into using corn for all our food. Meat is fattened with corn. Americans are fattened with corn. Medical costs skyrocket because corn products, due to subsidy, make healthier alternatives uncompetitive.

So what about the subsidies on using corn for fuel (Ethanol)?

Free society?! We eat food that makes us sick and become enslaved to a broken healthcare system that has bloated costs that are directly correlated back to our terrible diets.

This broken, imbalanced system is due to subsidized, very cheap energy costs.

So your solution is to fight one side of the broken sytem by jumping on the band wagon of the other side of the broken system? Even though both sides are subsidized? Are so called GREEN subsidies any better than the rest of the subsidies?

Food Inc. Does a really nice job of illustrating how corporitization in conjunction with input cost imbalance has turned our food economy into a Frankenstein.

I have seen FOOD Inc. I bought it after my son (an AG. ED. major) recommended it as a documentary I would relate well to. He & I have spent several years as sustainable food farmers as a side interest. I agree that our food industry is out of whack (to say the least) and that a lot was caused by the subsidy intrusion. That is one reason I am against it in ALL other markets and hope to fight to keep it (and the green-peacers that promote it) out of the HVAC industry.

:gah:

 

I agree with everything but attempting to level the playing field. Either energy subsidies go away, or they need to be used to remove unfair advantage on the non-renewable side.

I do think the HVAC industry needs to adopt a more modern holistic approach. With energy prices cheap, throw more energy at problems has bee the expedient approach. When energy prices more accurately reflect true cost you see a different way of looking at environmental control.

Europe and asia are decades ahead of us in this. We need to gain back a lot of ground. This energy thing will cripple us.

 

I agree with everything but attempting to level the playing field. Either energy subsidies go away, or they need to be used to remove unfair advantage on the non-renewable side.

Subsidies need to be removed period. But at the same time, the "progressive" mandates need to stop too. If so called "renewable" resources are wanted by the people (of the U.S.) then so be it, that market will grow - NATURALLY.

I do think the HVAC industry needs to adopt a more modern holistic approach. And you are allowed your opinion, but don't ram it down other peoples throat. With energy prices cheap, throw more energy at problems has bee the expedient approach. When energy prices more accurately reflect true cost you see a different way of looking at environmental control. Great, that is worth a shot in my eyes. Of course some, (like our president and current administration) want to rapidly inflate energy prices to FORCE people to choose these "GREEN" resources. Is that ok?

Europe and asia are decades ahead of us in this. We need to gain back a lot of ground. This energy thing will cripple us.

Europe and asia should not be a standard by which to measure the U.S. Different people, different cultures, different markets. It is SO easy for progressives to point to Europe and Asia (many with no actual expirience of what either are like). If I want a big honkin' SUV and a 5000 sq. ft. home that cost a fortune to heat & cool, I shouldn't be not allowed just because that is not what they do in Europe. News flash.... THIS AIN'T EUROPE!!

 

Persoanlly, I feel...

No subsidies = level playing field

If something is a viable product or service it will stand on its own in an open market. I think that we should do away with ALL subsidies, period!!

 

Personally, I feel...

No subsidies = level playing field

If something is a viable product or service it will stand on its own in an open market.
(I wish that were always true; but the playing-field is global & it's NOT level - udarrell)

I think that we should do away with ALL subsidies, period!!

Other countries do all kinds of things to subsidize & support their economic interest advantage endeavors; we aren't in the same league with China, if we remove all subsidies to try to level things somewhat, we will drop out of sight.

If you think the private sector will step up & save the economy think again; transnational corporations will simply leave America & play their games elsewhere.

Subsidize & support the right things; NOT the mega wealthy profiteering global corporatists, that show NO loyalty to America or Americans!

Subsidizing the right things can be very beneficial to small business good jobs & the economy. The right kind of private sector investments could help reboot the economy; but they're not motivated to do it.

How many times do we have to experience - that total lack of regulation & free-market only in America won't work in a skewed global economy?

Corporate Capitalism wasn't created by God, even though far too many would lead us to believe one more falsehood...!

 

Darrell,

I learn a lot from all kinds of people here. Some try to learn from me, and I am happy to pay it forward, clearly you are too.

Yes, envelope issues have a lot to do with load calc discrepancies, yes wasting energy weakens our country, no this is not going to matter to the OP. After all, SUV's and wasting energy are a God given right.

As Shophound succinctly put it:

Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance: the more one is invested in a particular point of view, the less likely one is to abandon it in the face of contrary evidence.

Some want answers that fit their preconceived notions so they can continue to do things "how we always done it".

Having a political argument with someone who may be a rocket scientist when it comes to hvac repair or maintenance, but may never have taken a college Econ or Poly Sci course, simply does not seem fruitful. Particularly once they have made it clear they don't understand that there are fingers on literally every scale from energy to health care, from food costs education.

And isn't this good? Shouldn't education be incentivized so more get it? Without incentives I wouldn't have taken that first BA class.

This is how government builds and dismantles industries, by putting a finger on one side of a scale or another. Thinking that is going away, or even that is should, is a bit unrealistic. Funny, people who want less government will also say things like "don't mess with my medicare".

 

Freedom of Speech & Thought...

Darrell,

I learn a lot from all kinds of people here. Some try to learn from me, and I am happy to pay it forward, clearly you are too.

Yes, envelope issues have a lot to do with load calc discrepancies, yes wasting energy weakens our country, no this is not going to matter to the OP. After all, SUV's and wasting energy are a God given right.

As Shophound succinctly put it:
Quote:

Originally Posted by shophound
Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance: the more one is invested in a particular point of view, the less likely one is to abandon it in the face of contrary evidence.

Some want answers that fit their preconceived notions so they can continue to do things "how we always done it".

Having a political argument with someone who may be a rocket scientist when it comes to hvac repair or maintenance, but may never have taken a college Econ or Poly Sci course, simply does not seem fruitful. Particularly once they have made it clear they don't understand that there are fingers on literally every scale from energy to health care, from food costs education.

And isn't this good? Shouldn't education be incentivized so more get it? Without incentives I wouldn't have taken that first BA class.

This is how government builds and dismantles industries, by putting a finger on one side of a scale or another. Thinking that is going away, or even that is should, is a bit unrealistic. Funny, people who want less government will also say things like "don't mess with my medicare".

Well put, tedkidd.

One wonders how many times us commoners will have to use our taxes to bail out the deregulated crooks. Look what the financial sector did; because the media & govt didn't get involved, the financial mortgage sector came very close to destroying America's & major portions of the global economy.

It is Russ Limbaugh & the far right that believe in lais-sez faire relationships; whereby, we let those with the power & money to act without any rules or principles to guide their insatiable greed & lack of ethics.
Oh, just let industry & business fix all the rules of competition, the conditions of labor, etc., as they please.

We still have a form of feudalism where large owners of property use the under class & employees as mere servant/slaves with no economic rights & who are at moneyed's beckoned command.

Regulation of economic & human relationships - by we the people's elected representatives is frowned upon, because regulations are perceived as a burden that tempers their power over us defenseless tax paying peasants.

Corporations will rule everything that happens to you, & they only care about profiteering - no matter if America & you suffer a total loss of livelihood or quality of life.

Limbaugh & a host of others fill the airwaves with this insane propaganda & the worse conditions get the more individuals will accept their destructive brainwashing trash-talk.

We all need to wake-up & speak-out before it is too late. A fully educated electorate will vote for the right kind of representatives; & a fully educated elected representative, entrepreneur or corporate CEO will work to benefit every arena of our existence.

Freedom of Speech & Thought: Sure, it's okay for you to disagree; but step back & think things through before you follow those who denigrate our elected govt & the common person. Try representing yourself & see how far you get...

Most of us have similar goals; it is time we worked together to achieve them.