[cledus]

LOL yes they are! over 400 each. I ended up buying some cheaper ones that did not work for me. some Armstrong m# TS-2. its not what I wanted but the sales guy told me they'd work great.
I found that they only worked when the pipe was cold. once it warmed up they didnt work so well. I think they have a charge in them that does not open till 20 degrees below saturation point. (not sure where I read the 20 degrees)

I ended up removing one of them and just cracking the nut to let a small amount of steam out from the trap

cledus; was your trap float ok, no holes, sticking? did you open the condensate drain valve to see if you had any back pressure at the float orifice when other systems are operating on the same condensate main?-- to touch on another statement about coil orientation - it's possible that when they installed it they misinterped the installation instructions regarding air flow and installed it upside down, i would find that hard to believe, would be bad, but anyway, if it's the coil i think it is, (now keep in mind, all i have to go on is the picture at the air handler), the air flow would have little or no affect.

 

[alikair]

Hi Cledus, I am still waiting to see how many days it can go before it fails.

after installing the 2 air vents, It stopped working again. so after screwing around with it for a while, I put it back to the only way it would work (with the nut cracked on the steam trap)

I am no longer certain it was due to air in the trap. it could have been vacuum. the cracked nut would allow steam to leave but also air to enter if needed.

the said part is, I was so certain it was air, that I removed the combo pressure / vac gauge I had installed so I could put another air vent in its place. now Im thinking it may be a vacuum issue and have no way to prove it.

I will let it run this way for a week to prove to myself, it truly works and was not a fluke. after that, I will try with and without a vacuum breaker where the cracked nut is.

I know how confusing this must sound to someone not here. anyway, I will let ya know in a week

 

[BBeerme]

At least you're still interested in finding the cause and are sticking with it. There's been a few jobs like that that have challenged me through the years. Earlier in my career if I came across something that was stumping me (and in this case prior contractors) I would just go to the person paying the bill and tell them I would be donating most of my time.

Then I never had a problem and the customer was more than happy to let me have at it. That also gave me some education that would have been difficult to get another way; at least that fast. Something else you are learning is how to deal with the next difficult job that comes along. You'll be able to look the customer in the eye and say something like: "Since this appears to be a problem unit that no one else could figure out, here's what I'm going to do to isolate the problem."

It's all part of the learning curve to becoming a better tech.

 

[cledus]

At least you're still interested in finding the cause and are sticking with it. There's been a few jobs like that that have challenged me through the years. Earlier in my career if I came across something that was stumping me (and in this case prior contractors) I would just go to the person paying the bill and tell them I would be donating most of my time.

Then I never had a problem and the customer was more than happy to let me have at it. That also gave me some education that would have been difficult to get another way; at least that fast. Something else you are learning is how to deal with the next difficult job that comes along. You'll be able to look the customer in the eye and say something like: "Since this appears to be a problem unit that no one else could figure out, here's what I'm going to do to isolate the problem."

It's all part of the learning curve to becoming a better tech.

cledus; hey, thanks bbeerme for the boost, i needed it, i am trying to work with alikair now - 1 step at a time with a differant approach as i think he may be overwhelmed with the suggestions, i am quite sure i know what the problem is and am going to make a diagram of what he should have as soon as i can get it drawn up...(hint,..vacuum breaker)...cledus

 

[alikair]

At least you're still interested in finding the cause and are sticking with it. There's been a few jobs like that that have challenged me through the years. Earlier in my career if I came across something that was stumping me (and in this case prior contractors) I would just go to the person paying the bill and tell them I would be donating most of my time.

Then I never had a problem and the customer was more than happy to let me have at it. That also gave me some education that would have been difficult to get another way; at least that fast. Something else you are learning is how to deal with the next difficult job that comes along. You'll be able to look the customer in the eye and say something like: "Since this appears to be a problem unit that no one else could figure out, here's what I'm going to do to isolate the problem."

It's all part of the learning curve to becoming a better tech.

BEEN THERE DONE THAT! :grin2:

 

[GOVHVAC]

Interesting thread. I vote vacuum breaker, and thinking a bucket trap may work better also. I'm with the others and just don't see how the coil could be causing it. Seems to me if you have 8 psi of steam it should push the condensate out unless it's getting locked up in a vacuum. Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

 

[BBeerme]

Seems to me if you have 8 psi of steam it should push the condensate out unless it's getting locked up in a vacuum.

How does the condensate get locked up in a coil due to vacuum with 8 psi of steam behind it?

 

[GOVHVAC]

How does the condensate get locked up in a coil due to vacuum with 8 psi of steam behind it?

It shouldn't if the control valve is open, but when it closes it would need a vacuum breaker to prevent the coil from going into a vac. I guess I should've said if it has 8 psi of steam to the coil then it should push the steam out. The condensate probably won't drain out of the coil when the control valve closes. Only problem I see with that is if it is pulling in a lot of outside air it could freeze and rupture the coil. If there's no potential in freezing then the condensate should get pushed out when the control valve opens unless like you have suggested there is a bad trap, plugged strainer or return piping.

 

[BBeerme]

I can't even count the number of coils I've seen with no vacuum break and worked just fine. The entire coil could be filled with condensate or a total vacuum. Once there is pressure, the trap or other device will open allowing the condensate (or air) to leave the coil.

Pretty sure I recommended very early on in this thread to just put on one of those Spirax Sarco (or similar brand) thermo steam traps. They're open until the steam hits it, then it closes. Everything the OP has stated indicates this would solve the problem.

It shouldn't if the control valve is open, but when it closes it would need a vacuum breaker to prevent the coil from going into a vac.

 

[GOVHVAC]

Pretty sure I recommended very early on in this thread to just put on one of those Spirax Sarco (or similar brand) thermo steam traps. They're open until the steam hits it, then it closes. Everything the OP has stated indicates this would solve the problem.

I agree, that's why I said I would try a different trap. I have seen coils get water logged where I've had to drain them down to get the condensate out before they started working, although once I drained it down it kept working and didn't have to keep draining it down everyday as the op does.

My point from the beginning was I thought it was an interesting thread and I don't think it's a problem with the coil and that I agreed with you. If it were me working on it I would throw a new trap on it as you suggested, and I would also put a vacuum breaker on it. It wouldnt take an hour or so to do this. I think he said they already cleaned the strainer and replaced the condensate return pipe.

 

[cledus]

I agree, that's why I said I would try a different trap. I have seen coils get water logged where I've had to drain them down to get the condensate out before they started working, although once I drained it down it kept working and didn't have to keep draining it down everyday as the op does.

My point from the beginning was I thought it was an interesting thread and I don't think it's a problem with the coil and that I agreed with you. If it were me working on it I would throw a new trap on it as you suggested, and I would also put a vacuum breaker on it. It wouldnt take an hour or so to do this. I think he said they already cleaned the strainer and replaced the condensate return pipe.

cledus;..alkair stated in a recent post that he replaced the thermal vent in the trap and stated that helped some he thought, i posted some questions to him at that time about other inards and thier condition, says he will get back. also,..the amount of fresh water they are adding to the system will rot thermal bellows in a hurry if they are not stainless steel, but!, hold on! that would create an air vent all of the time assuming all else is ok in the trap, (not plugged or pressurized) also that would provide a "vacuum breaker"if the condensate tank is not air tight,.. as it should not be, if it is and the bellows is bad at some point you would get pressure in the condensate system and this would disable the entire system. i posted earlier to buford the make of the steam trap, you can find a cutaway of it on the web at.

http://mepcollc.com/pdf/literature/steam-specialties/1514E.pdf

i had suggested to alikair to get spirax/sarco or armstrong combination vent/vauum breaker, but had condemed that idea as they are to expensive, from what i can understand alikair has a couple that will probably work ok, he just needs to take some pipe nipples and elbows to extend them up and about 2 feet away from the steam trap so to make it cool quicker, this may work, i've never tried it.
i would install a tee on the standpipe that is connected on the condensate line and put a horizontal check valve on the branch and a larger capacity vent on the through leg...cledus

 

[alikair]

cledus;..alkair stated in a recent post that he replaced the thermal vent in the trap and stated that helped some he thought, i posted some questions to him at that time about other inards and thier condition, says he will get back. also,..the amount of fresh water they are adding to the system will rot thermal bellows in a hurry if they are not stainless steel, but!, hold on! that would create an air vent all of the time assuming all else is ok in the trap, (not plugged or pressurized) also that would provide a "vacuum breaker"if the condensate tank is not air tight,.. as it should not be, if it is and the bellows is bad at some point you would get pressure in the condensate system and this would disable the entire system. i posted earlier to buford the make of the steam trap, you can find a cutaway of it on the web at.

http://mepcollc.com/pdf/literature/steam-specialties/1514E.pdf

i had suggested to alikair to get spirax/sarco or armstrong combination vent/vauum breaker, but had condemed that idea as they are to expensive, from what i can understand alikair has a couple that will probably work ok, he just needs to take some pipe nipples and elbows to extend them up and about 2 feet away from the steam trap so to make it cool quicker, this may work, i've never tried it.
i would install a tee on the standpipe that is connected on the condensate line and put a horizontal check valve on the branch and a larger capacity vent on the through leg...cledus

I thought of extending the air vents as well. I will end up doing that in the near future.

 

[alikair]

I have some new information.

Looks like the original assessment was incorrect.

When the system "locks up", we were going by the dial thermometer located 1 foot below the coil on the edge of the coil were the steam first enters.
It was giving us a phony reading.
When it was reading its best temps 120-130 the actual discharge temp taken further down the duct work was only 120.
When it was reading its worse temp, locked at 80 degrees the actual discharge temp was 107.

Not saying there is no problem, just not as bad as we originally thought.

Also, for those of you still watching this tread, the weather has warmed up since I have made my last adjustments. I wont know if I truly made any headway until I see the air temps drop into the 30's

and thanks again for sticking with me cledus :grin2:

 

[cledus]

cledus; is this a downdraft air flow?...cledus

 

[alikair]

cledus; is this a downdraft air flow?...cledus

yes it is.

 

[cledus]

cledus;...fan underneath the coil? can you get inside the air handler and see the underside of the coil? if so you can see if the coil is upside down and would be sloping away from the header...would not be good, would be pittyful. cledus

 

[alikair]

cledus;...fan underneath the coil? can you get inside the air handler and see the underside of the coil? if so you can see if the coil is upside down and would be sloping away from the header...would not be good, would be pittyful. cledus

Fan is under the coil. I can see the coil from top and bottom. coil looks flat. no slope in coil nor header.

 

[cledus]

Fan is under the coil. I can see the coil from top and bottom. coil looks flat. no slope in coil nor header.

cledus;... i am assuming from your picture that the coil is about 40"x 60" so the slope, if there, would only be about 5/8" to 1" and would be sloped in the case, (sheet metal frame around it), otherwise the contractor or supplier screwed up on the choice, who knows, maybe the supplier screwed up and the contractor did'nt know the differance, but if the slope aint there, you were right, it is possibly a vertical coil, but the coil itself is identical i believe, whoever is ordering it must specify the orientation and header relative to the steam supply and condensate drainage...more hallucinations later...cledus

ps, header would not be sloped in any case.....

 

[alikair]

cledus;... i am assuming from your picture that the coil is about 40"x 60" so the slope, if there, would only be about 5/8" to 1" and would be sloped in the case, (sheet metal frame around it), otherwise the contractor or supplier screwed up on the choice, who knows, maybe the supplier screwed up and the contractor did'nt know the differance, but if the slope aint there, you were right, it is possibly a vertical coil, but the coil itself is identical i believe, whoever is ordering it must specify the orientation and header relative to the steam supply and condensate drainage...more hallucinations later...cledus

ps, header would not be sloped in any case.....

in some of the pictures i seen in a armstrong catalog the horizontal coils the header looked much different. the outlet was slightly lower and smaller then the inlet.
Hard to tell from the picture tho. I will make sure when this coil needs to be replaced again it will be right!

 

[cledus]

in some of the pictures i seen in a armstrong catalog the horizontal coils the header looked much different. the outlet was slightly lower and smaller then the inlet.
Hard to tell from the picture tho. I will make sure when this coil needs to be replaced again it will be right!

cledus; i think it's a mcquay, and probably made by heatcraft(luvata grenada llc). anyhow, see if you can try this--remove the small silver vent on the condensate standpipe--put a tee on the top with one of your ts-2 armstrong traps on the top--get a 1/2" 15 degree swing check valve and install it on the branch of the tee with the swing of the flap check toward the tee--after it operates for a while see if all seems to be working, look to see if thermostat is calling for heat before condeming anything, if it still does not work, remove piping from coil at condensate header and replace reducing elbow with full size tee and pipe down to horizontal condensate line with full size pipe--configure your standpipe with reducer bushings and install on the topmost leg of the tee--configure your horizontal condensate piping to fit the full size down pipe,-- see that horizontal pipe does not run uphill, downhill is better. - - - while the condensate piping is off the header, take a look in there, you never know what might be in there, someone may have hooked up a sewage line to it...keep us posted...cledus

ps; the inside of the header will suprise you how it is fabricated, it has perforated tubes inside of open tubes closed at the opposite end and thus will blow the condensate out into the condensate header unless the outer tubes are scaled up--you should see a tube within a tube on the header, if you think there is anything not right with the steam tubes now is the time to look, get someone with one of those snake cameras and have a looksee back in the header if there is room between the condensate and the steam tube...merry christmas
i would make a sketch or post a picture if i could figure out how?

i also forgot to tell you to be sure and move the trap down as far as you can...cledus