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Hot-Humid Florida Residential Ventilation Air Options

4.8K views 15 replies 5 participants last post by  poss  
#1 ·
I know variants of this question have been asked before, and I’ve read many of the replies (including tons from Teddy Bear, which have all been very informative, thanks!) but I haven’t seen many that address the needs we have in Florida, where we run the AC about 360 days/year.

I’m building a large (10,000) square foot residence in South Florida and am looking for the best (least tradeoffs) way to provide some fresh air distributed throughout the home to keep the air quality high, and as a secondary goal, provide some make up air for the 400 CFM range hood and other air exhausting appliances, although realistically I will probably have enough leakage to cover the make up air.

I think we’d like to have about 100 CFM or so of ventilation air, most of the time. I am fine with there being a little more or less intermittently, I'd just like to dilute the stale indoor air with some clean air.

The original plan (suggested by the engineer) was to use a ventilating dehumidifier such as the XT205H located in the attic, however, this uses about 1,500 watts and dumps a lot of the energy into heating the supply air output. Florida is hot already and we don’t want to waste energy cooling that hot & dry air down.

Second idea (suggested by Ultra-Aire) was to use their SD-12 split system to keep much of the heat outside, however this home is spec’d to have 20 tons of A/C already (four 5-ton units), and the thought of another appliance to break down, leak, need maintenance, etc. was a concern. Plus it would likely be placed in the attic making access tougher. If we went this route, we would just use a single SD12 and split the output of this machine into the supply trunk of the 2 units that feed the bedrooms and a central area where the vent air would hopefully mix will some of the room air picked up by the other 2 handlers.

Third idea (suggested by my contractor) was doing a simple Central Fan Integrated System. Using a 6” round duct to the outside air, passing through a damper into the return trunk of a few of the air handlers. Maybe using a aircycler or similar product to choke-off the outside air when the handler has been running for an extended period, and turning on the handler for a few minutes to distribute air during periods of low use (although that is basically never in this climate).

We use properly sized, variable speed HVAC units in our current Florida house, with low-e glass & icynene sealed attic and the indoor humidity is usually 48-53% at 74 degrees (we don’t currently have any o/a intake); so I think the air conditioning can do a decent job dehumidifying the house without a dedicated machine.

So, if we maximize the dehumidifying ability of the air conditioning system by sizing the tonnage properly, using variable speed units and/or setting the fan speed of each unit to provide max dehumidification, can a Central Fan Integrated System provide some fresh air without too much humidify increase, and with a minimum of cost & complexity, or is there some magic into having a dedicated dehumidifier that will make it worth the extra maintenance?

Thanks for all the advice.
 
#2 ·
You likely only need ~ 12 -14 tons for a 10,000 Square Foot residence
in South FL
with Windows S.H.G.C. < 0.22
_______ U-value < 0.40
+ Build to 2015 IECC or BETTER

I presume the total glass area is < 1,300 square feet
with much of it being covered with overhangs and lanai

I can use maximum of Five ~ 3-ton units to satisfy the HVAC needs
unless the Outside Air is >> 360 CFM.

Two or three mechanical rooms / areas are required.

Send drawings to my gmail … racingdan11.
I reside in 33928 SW FL region.
 
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#4 ·
You likely only need ~ 12 -14 tons for a 10,000 Square Foot residence
in South FL
with Windows S.H.G.C. < 0.22
_______ U-value < 0.40
+ Build to 2015 IECC or BETTER

I presume the total glass area is < 1,300 square feet
with much of it being covered with overhangs and lanai

I can use maximum of Five ~ 3-ton units to satisfy the HVAC needs
unless the Outside Air is >> 200 CFM.

Two or three mechanical rooms / areas are required.
Dan, Specs on the windows are U-Factor=0.95, SHGC=0.25. The windows are single pane, Clear Lo-E 366 Glass.
However their is a ton of glass, so maybe the 20 tons isn't that far off.
 
#3 ·
First, dehumidifier consumes energy only when removing moisture. Your home should only need supplemental when the a/c is not operating enough to maintain 50%RH.
During the summer days, a/c run that a properly setup a/c will maintain <50%RH while cooling. During evening hours, expect some dehumdifier run when the a/c cycling off. Rainy days will make the dehumidifiers run several hours every day. As you stated, 1,500 watts. Your 5 ton a/c will use 4,000 watts each plus the fan, another 500 watts each. To make even worse, how much will a 5 ton a/c run on a rainy day. A home that has <50%RH will be comfortable at warmer temperatures.

Filtered, fresh air for foam insulated home is important to purge indoor air pollutants and renew oxygen. Most indoor air quality experts suggest a fresh air change in 4-5 hours minimum when occupied.
10,000 sqft. of space with 10' ceilings is 100,000 ^3 ft. of space. 80 cfm of make-up on the total home or on each 5 ton a/c? Your new codes suggest an air in 3-5 hours when occupied at a minimum.
This is 300 cfm per min. That is not much for 10,000 sq.ft. of living space. What did your engineer suggest for fresh air? During calm winds this a minimal amount of fresh for a home of this size. It is an air change in 6 hours. That is about half of what the DOE suggests.
It is your home, so what ever you think.
I have a home in FL and I know what happens during rainy weather with no/low sensible cooling loads. There is no dehumidification from an a/c unless it i has an operating sensible. It really has nothing to do with 2 speed or multi-speed. They do not run enough to remove any significant moisture without significant sensible cooling. If we have occupants and fresh air, the home's indoor %RH will rise to the outdoor dew point plus the moisture from the occupants.
Confirm the amount of total fresh make-up air you plan on using.
Whatever happens keep us posted on what you do and how it works.
Regards Teddy Bear
 
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#5 ·
T. Bear, The engineer recommended 153 CFM of outside air. I'm open to that, or maybe slightly more fresh air, I just don't want to spend a fortune in operating costs, and I already have a ton (no pun intended) of equipment going in this house.

I do have a decent spot in the attic where an SD-12 would work, so are you suggesting that if I use this, then I should run the fan constant, but cycle the dehum with a humidistat?
 
#8 ·
Are you saying 153 cfm of fresh for 10,000 sq.ft. of space or per 5 ton a/c?
How are you going to mix the fresh air into the 10,000 sq.ft. of space?
Much simplier to add fresh air to individual 5 ton in key areas.
Like put the fresh air and an Ultra-Aire XT155H the on important parts of the home that will be occupied the most.
The cost of 3 key areas to condition 153 cfm of is about .5 ton of cooling.
Providing the contractor get the equipment installed properly and adjusted to handle the latent to meet manual S, this should work out the dehumidifiers will only operate evenings and rainy days. The rest of the time the a/cs will maintain <50%rH including 3X 180 cfm fresh air at design conditions.
You need to review all of this with your engineer that signed off on the design. Many of the points we are discussing are specified by code and will need to be also inspected.
How you operate the home could be different. The last few years, FL has been challenging for moisture related problems. Like sweaty ducts in attics and mold on grills plus comfort issues.
Whole developments have had to have modification made to fix the problems because of extreme humidity issues.
I am assuming open cell foam on the roof deck?
Circulating air is discussed often. It is a 2 edged sword. Fresh air when occupied is important. Blending the air into the home is important. But it re-evaporates the moisture off the a/c coils quicker than normal re=evaporation. Circulation also make the temperature more uniform. Because of comfort and air quality and comfort, I suggest circulation when occupied. The dehumidifier fan can do this. They could mis 158 cfm of fresh with an equal amount of house air, filter the air with a standard merv 13 and circulate the filtered air through the duct area serviced by one 5 ton air. The DEH3000 controller can be setup will occupancy schedule for each day of the week. Also CO2 sensing could be used to minimize fresh air.
Keep us posted.
Today is a big day for me, going to SW FL for the winter.
Regards Teddy Bear
 
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#6 ·
New construction?
500 square feet per ton?

What did the manual J load calculations say? If you don't know; ask to see them and then let me know.

PHM
------------
 
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#9 ·
Teddy Bear,

Safe travels!

Yes, I was saying 153 CFM for the entire space, although I am open to the idea of more, I don't want to install another appliance to do it. I was going to split the fresh or DH air between the 2 air handlers on the second floor. These would circulate to the bedrooms which is the most important, and possibly some fresh air would mix into the living room below from the open areas above.

If I need more fresh air, how can I introduce to the first floor without a second DH?

Yes, open cell on the roof deck.

Why would you suggest the XT155H instead of the SD12? I know it's much simplier to install, but it is because the DH wont be running that much and I'll be using mostly fan? If I use a package unit like this instead of the split, I could locate it much more conveniently in the attic between the 2 upstairs units. (If I use the SD12 I need to push it close to the exterior wall to keep the copper below 50')


PHM & Beenthere, I will ask for the Manual J calcs today, but I believe the tonnage is due to the glass load. Much of the back of the house is glass and facing SW.
 
#14 ·
REALITY CHECK REQUIRED .!

Saw the manual J and it did call for 20 tons,
however several of the inputs were left at default so they are going to re-run the calcs.

Dan, it's actually just a hair over 3,000 square feet of glass.
This new adventure will be found in my SIMPLY INSANE to a NEW EXTREME Folder.
_ _ _ 20 TONS _ _ _
_ _ _ Luckily, you are filed in spot # 2.

_ _ _ Never say Impossible, it WILL Occur, WHEN is the Question.

_ _ _ I'll call FPL and let them know they need to build that New SE FL Solar power plant Now.
… $ 5,000 / year for just A/C and add another 1,000 or 2 for inflation and Climate Change in a few years

ATTACHMENT
_______ CALCULATING THE IMPOSSIBLE
 

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#15 · (Edited)
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#16 ·
Dan, Thanks for the humor (and the calc)!
I'm not familiar with the energy gauge summit, but I did see a document with a score of 91, so maybe that's it.

Did you see the question about why the XT155H/205H instead of the SD12? It this because most of the time I will be running these fan only?
 
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