[R600a]

Hi GoCougs and R600a:

GoCougs your comment was that they (CoreMax) suck. If you don't mind I would like to understand what it is about them that makes you say that and compared to what. I'm not trying to be defensive or anything just genuinely trying to understand your situation/experience. Obviously we want to make the highest quality product that is easy to use for not only the manufacturer (be it Goodman, Carrier, Trane, etc. all of whom have used them for many years) but also for the service people that work with them in the field. When I hear someone say "they suck" that's a problem that as a manufacturer who cares about what you, our customer, thinks I want to give you an opportunity to help me/us understand what is happening so that we can make our product, training or whatever better. That is where I'm coming from and I hope that you will help.

A bit more detail on the CoreMax system... CoreMax was designed to provide significantly more flow than a Schrader valve (3 to 5 times more) for faster evacuation and charging in addition to better/more robust sealing performance. It absolutely does that and there is abundant test data verifying it. That's why the manufacturers use them. It has proven to save them significant time on the manufacturing line. Also, the design of the CoreMax has demonstrated them to be more leak tight because there is a metal to metal seal between the valve core. The CoreMax design is quite different than Schrader but it's subltle.

In order to get a leak tight seal it is important that the valve core and seat sealing surfaces be free of contamination and that the valve core be tightened to the proper torque value of 8 ft-lbs! The core tools SCFT10 or SCFT20A have a hex on the end or the TEE handle to which you can attach at torque wrench and we also offer a preset wrench (SCFTM01) that is available for purchase.

CoreMax also features the same SAE 1/4 flare with a 7/16-20 thread that a Schrader fitting typically has so that common refrigeration hoses can easily be connected, i.e. you can evacuate the system or add/remove refrigerant to the system by connecting common refrigerant hoses to the CoreMax valve.

With that said a Schrader core removal tool will not work with CoreMax because the design of the CoreMax is different than Schrader so if you want to remove the CoreMax core for whatever reason you must buy/have one of our tools, either the SCFT10 or SCFT20A tool with the SCFT20A being better suited for field service because you can as I said in my previous post exchange a CoreMax core without losing refrigerant with that tool. The process of replacing a CoreMax core is very similar to how you do it for a Schrader but you need the CoreMax tool, e.g. SCFT20A.

If the factory has its process under control and is not introducing contamination into the seat before the valve core is installed then a good, reliable hermetic seal should be achieved and leakage through the CoreMax should virtually zero indefinitely (As I noted before CoreMax has demonstrated itself to have less leakage than Schrader many times). Also it is recommended that a brass (preferably) or plastic dust cap be screwed onto the CoreMax to protect it from debris/contamination and also provide a secondary back-up seal.

What happens after it leaves the factory is where you as service technicians experience it. Contamination on sealing surfaces is the enemy of and valve regardless of whether it is a CoreMax, a Schrader, a Packed Angle valve, whatever. It is my guess that in the case of CoreMax that when you experience a leaking Core it's due to contamination somehow getting into the sealing area, either from inside the system during evacuation or from outside the system when refrigerant is being added when there was contamination in the top of the CoreMax (or Schrader) that was not blown out before the refrigerant "pushed" it through the valve.

As I said previously, I/we would like to better understand your situation and see if we can change your opinion. We are also happy anytime to provide training or discuss questions you may have and help solve any problems. I/we would like to hear from everyone who has had any issues or would like to give feedback with our CoreMax system!!! Please feel free to contact me directly at 651-251-9741 or at my e-mail thomas.braun@fastestinc.com or through our 800 number (800-444-2373).

Thank you!

I honestly don't mind them and I would actually probably like them if the core tool was $100 or less but there's no way I'll ever pay that price for the tool. I think it's an excellent idea in theory and they seem to work pretty dang good out in the field but the fact that the tool costs so much is very annoying. I think if manufacturers want to use them they should sell the tools below cost so that we can service them in the field for a reasonable price. Conveniently the only times I've run across them the system has been completely out of freon so I didn't even have to recover the charge I just had an unscrew it and screw in a new one so that wasn't bad at all and thankfully they're available in town in stock here so I can't complain about that side of things.
I do have to say the pizza shop owners were not very impressed that their system had a proprietary valve core that took us an extra hour to find a replacement and change cuz it was hot in that kitchen.
Now if that tool was available for $100 or less I'd buy one just so I'd have it next time I need one and I'd keep those valves in stock in my truck.

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[R600a]

So I guess basically what I'm trying to say is when the patents run out and the aftermarket gets a hold of the design for that tool and starts selling them cheaper all will be well.

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[GoCougs]

I have no doubt that coremax is a great solution for the manufacturing process.

Regular schraders seal well enough, are easy to replace, and cheap.

Many of us field techs simply prefer to be able to pull the core for quick evacuations.


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[TBRAUNSKI]

CoreMax Access Valves

Thanks guys for your candid responses! Let me respond...

R600a:

1) I hear you saying that the sealing/leaking performance of CoreMax is not really the issue with you. Would you say that compared to a Schrader valve that CoreMax valves leak a) more often, b) less often, c) about the same frequency? Please comment.

2) I also heard you say that the price of the Core Tool is a major issue and that at a target price of $100 or less you (and I assume most service techs) would be willing to add it to your tool kit. Did I understand you correctly?

3) Further, understood you to say that the result of service techs not having the CoreMax spare parts (valve cores mainly and I suppose seats too to some extent) and the tools to service them is that customers get upset and techs don't want to deal with CoreMax. Is that an accurate understanding?

GoCougs:

You said 2 things...

1) Schrader cores seal adequately and are cheap, and

2) Tech's like to speed up the evacuation by pulling the Schrader core.

Re 1) Re the sealing, fair enough but certainly no one would complain that CoreMax leaks less. Re price A CoreMax core will never be the same price as a Schrader core because it's a larger part and costs more to produce. However, that is part of why CoreMax can flow so much more than Schrader which leads to 2) but before I go there can you tell me on average what you pay for the Schrader cores and what quantity you typically buy them in?

Re 2) Re speed of evacuation, I can't cut and paste the flow comparison table which is available on our website (https://www.fastestinc.com/en/SCCA07H) but the CoreMax valve will flow more with the core in place than a Schrader will with the core removed! The implication is that with CoreMax you can simply connect the swivel nut to the 1/4 flare and evacuate. There is no need to extract the core IF you are OK with being slightly faster than a Schrader with its core pulled. That will save you connection time and potential for a poor reseal of the Schrader core. IF YOU REMOVE THE CoreMax CORE YOU WILL GET UP TO 5 TIMES MORE FLOW THAN IS POSSIBLE THROUGH SCHRADER which will result in even shorter evacuation time! If time is money (and we know it is) that can help justify the cost of the CoreMax core tool (SCFTA20A) in time saved evacuating (remember that is why the OEM's use CoreMax at the factory... significantly shorter evacuation and charge times). I'm not trying to minimize the point that R600a was making about a lower price of the CoreMax core tool would incentivize the service techs to add one to their tool kits... I heard you loud and clear on that!

Also, I wanted to expand a bit on why CoreMax seals more effectively than a Schrader. Schrader style access valves have two leak paths and poor tolerance control making them prone to leaks. They have a sleeve seal between the valve core and the seat and an additional elastomer seal on the valve. The CoreMax valve core uses one elastomer to seal both the valve and the seat and also has a metal to metal seal for redundancy on the seat. The CoreMax valve core pin positioning is manufactured to exacting tolerances for consistent sealing and valve opening. As I have said previously the CoreMax can be connected to using common/standard service tools and caps, it has the same (7/16-20) thread, taper and sealing surface as commonly used on refrigeration valves (ANSI/ARI standard 720-2002).

Great feedback guys. I thank you. Obviously we have some work to do on our end as it relates to the service technician side of the business. Your input helps us understand and I/we really appreciate it!

Please feel free to contact me with more questions either on this forum or at my e-mail or phone #.

So I guess basically what I'm trying to say is when the patents run out and the aftermarket gets a hold of the design for that tool and starts selling them cheaper all will be well.

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[R600a]

Thanks guys for your candid responses! Let me respond...

R600a:

1) I hear you saying that the sealing/leaking performance of CoreMax is not really the issue with you. Would you say that compared to a Schrader valve that CoreMax valves leak a) more often, b) less often, c) about the same frequency? Please comment.

2) I also heard you say that the price of the Core Tool is a major issue and that at a target price of $100 or less you (and I assume most service techs) would be willing to add it to your tool kit. Did I understand you correctly?

3) Further, understood you to say that the result of service techs not having the CoreMax spare parts (valve cores mainly and I suppose seats too to some extent) and the tools to service them is that customers get upset and techs don't want to deal with CoreMax. Is that an accurate understanding?
#.

As for question number one, I don't see to many of them in the field so I cant say anything about reliability but the one I did see was destroyed by a tech at another company who then turned in a bid for a new system because it was "not available" well I was working next store when the corporate tech showed up and I wandered over and asked what was wrong so he told me what the other company had said. I told him I could fix it right now and he you got the job and if you get these two units up and running this morning you get all our work on this end of the state.
So anyway I think they are a much better design than a schrader as far as reliability but until the tool is afordable I won't be happy. I have actually thought about putting one on a system I was building but I don't know where to get the base.

As for question number two yes I feel that the tool should not cost more than $100 and until then I won't keep them on my truck. The price of the cores does not bother me at all.

I agree with what you said in number three.

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[TBRAUNSKI]

Thank you for your responses. Very helpful! I've taken your comments to heart re the pricing of the Core tools. From a manufacturing perspective it is a challenge to be in the same price range as Schrader tools for a number of reasons including sheer scale/volume and also because the CoreMax parts are physically larger and thus cost more to produce but that's my issue to figure out! Another way of looking at it is that as I said time is money and if the CoreMax system saves you time it will also over time more than pay for the cost of a Core Tool. I heard you though and don't want to beat the issue to death!

Re installing CoreMax into systems that you service, we would love to encourage that and I think you would be happy you did! Let me know how we can help you get there!

The "Bases" you refer to we call CoreMax "Seats". The CoreMax "Valve Cores" screw into the CoreMax Seat. They are sold separately so that you can braze the Seat into your plumbing without damaging the elastomer seals in the Valve Core. We make several sizes & styles of Seats including, stub tube style, saddle mount style, panel mount style and NPT style. I mentioned that we serve the aftermarket through JB Industries and their sub distributors such as Johnstone Supply (https://www.johnstonesupply.com/search/go?w=coremax). Seats, Valve Cores and tools are all available through them.

Best regards!

 

[R600a]

Thank you for your responses. Very helpful! I've taken your comments to heart re the pricing of the Core tools. From a manufacturing perspective it is a challenge to be in the same price range as Schrader tools for a number of reasons including sheer scale/volume and also because the CoreMax parts are physically larger and thus cost more to produce but that's my issue to figure out!
Best regards!

That is why I said $100 because that is about two times the cost of a Schrader tool.

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[R600a]

By the way I really appreciate the fact that you as a person representing the manufacturer is taking an interest in this and listening to our concerns. Even if nothing comes of it thank you for that.

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[Dad]

Hey Thomas.... we have a rule against phone numbers and email addresses and such in the open areas of the site. Your posts have been edited by the staff.

Hey guys... he's not advertising. It's ok, please carry on.

 

[TBRAUNSKI]

CoreMax Access Valves

Hi: Re the phone # & email address, sorry, I didn't understand your policy. Will refrain from that in the future. People can look at my profile to see the e-mail which is fine.

Best regards!

Hey Thomas.... we have a rule against phone numbers and email addresses and such in the open areas of the site. Your posts have been edited by the staff.

Hey guys... he's not advertising. It's ok, please carry on.

 

[TBRAUNSKI]

Hi R600a: Thank you and right back at you! You honest and candid feedback is incredibly valuable in understanding the true situation in the real world, something that can be very difficult to get. It's easy to live in a bubble of delusion!

I think you made a comment earlier that manufacturers should sell the tools below cost and I understand the sentiment but being a businessman yourself how long will you stay in business if you sell at a loss? I/we do understand that CoreMax is sort of a razor/razor blade scenario, meaning that we can subsidize the profit on selling our tools to some degree if that leads to selling a lot more CoreMax valves and seats. It's something that we do in fact consider and will revisit. The trick is to find the balance point so to speak.

Best regards!

 

[m singer]

Any educated tech or installer, who cares about pulling a good vacuum, has invested in: shrader core removal tools and dedicated large evacuation hoses that do not have core depressors. To use these with coremax valves, we now have to add a core depressor to that list of tools. Doing so introduces more potential leak points as well as the restriction of the hard 90, at the core depressor, and the restriction of the core depressor stem. Restrictions and leak points are exactly what we are trying to avoid while doing an evacuation.

There is also the costly issue of buying the core max tool and stocking core max valves.

Your product has done nothing but make field service more difficult and more expensive while adding nothing of benefit to us working in the field. From a field servicer's perspective, coremax valves are at best, a costly solution to a nonexistent problem.

And that, sir, is why core max valves sux.

 

[R600a]

Any educated tech or installer, who cares about pulling a good vacuum, has invested in: shrader core removal tools and dedicated large evacuation hoses that do not have core depressors. To use these with coremax valves, we now have to add a core depressor to that list of tools. Doing so introduces more potential leak points as well as the restriction of the hard 90, at the core depressor, and the restriction of the core depressor stem. Restrictions and leak points are exactly what we are trying to avoid while doing an evacuation.

There is also the costly issue of buying the core max tool and stocking core max valves.

Your product has done nothing but make field service more difficult and more expensive while adding nothing of benefit to us working in the field. From a field servicer's perspective, coremax valves are at best, a costly solution to a nonexistent problem.

And that, sir, is why core max valves sux.

Unfortunately cormax was designed for manufacturers because they want to reduce assembly line time so it had nothing to do with field servicers. That is why I believe manufacturers who want to use core Max should be providing us the tools at a reduced cost. As for core depressors I think they're a good thing to have anyway and I plan to buy a set this summer. But then again I like having all the tools available so that's just me.

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[BBeerme]

Mr. TB . .

Had to run through this thread pretty fast, mainly due to when the thread was started and my time on a day off. When I first ran across these fittings, they were no big deal. I understood the quicker evacuation and charging by the manufactures.

And if I ever found a bad one, the local Sigler dealer has a 'program' to deal with them. Here's the way it works. You pay out something like $450 to get the core removal tool, then when you return it, they credit you the same amount. Pretty cool. Just takes 1.5 hours or more of extra labor for travel and counter time.

I'm thinking the reason us techs who are trying to be better than others do not like them has to do with the evacuation. Even though they are more 'high flow', there is still something there. I upped my game maybe 5 years ago by removing shrader cores and gauges from the system when evacuating. Talk about reducing the evacuation time. Whatever it used to be, now it is only 25% of that time.

I'll post this now, but give me a few minutes to run [walk] out to my truck [grab a beer on the way] and show how I got around your product [which likely slows me down].

 

[BBeerme]

Here's my box of tricks for fast evacuations. Remember, the idea is to get full flow, those molecules hate it when they have to bounce off of something on the way out.

You see, I just rip the guts out. Maybe I should say, I ripped the guts out.

What I do is after recovery and repair, I remove those high flow shraders. And install my HIGHER flow ports. Then evacuate. When charging, I charge to ~1 psig then remove MY higher flow ports and re-install your HIGHER flow ports. Then continue charging to whatever is required.

Only thing that I know to do to keep up my low evac times.

 

[BALloyd]

Mr. TB . .

Had to run through this thread pretty fast, mainly due to when the thread was started and my time on a day off. When I first ran across these fittings, they were no big deal. I understood the quicker evacuation and charging by the manufactures.

And if I ever found a bad one, the local Sigler dealer has a 'program' to deal with them. Here's the way it works. You pay out something like $450 to get the core removal tool, then when you return it, they credit you the same amount. Pretty cool. Just takes 1.5 hours or more of extra labor for travel and counter time.

I'm thinking the reason us techs who are trying to be better than others do not like them has to do with the evacuation. Even though they are more 'high flow', there is still something there. I upped my game maybe 5 years ago by removing shrader cores and gauges from the system when evacuating. Talk about reducing the evacuation time. Whatever it used to be, now it is only 25% of that time.

I'll post this now, but give me a few minutes to run [walk] out to my truck [grab a beer on the way] and show how I got around your product [which likely slows me down].

This nice of your wholesaler. Our Carrier wholesaler made us buy one for $700.00.

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[R600a]

This nice of your wholesaler. Our Carrier wholesaler made us buy one for $700.00.

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Ouch i was quoted $350 for one.

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[BALloyd]

Ouch i was quoted $350 for one.

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Well $700 Canadian....isn't that like $100 USD??

Maybe you got ripped off....

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[R600a]

Well $700 Canadian....isn't that like $100 USD??

Maybe you got ripped off....m

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Oh. I forget there are other dollars.

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[lrussell]

Re CoreMax, I forgot to mention that in the unlikely event that a CoreMax valve should start to leak we make a "Core Replacement Tool" that allows you to remove and replace the valve core without having to bleed the system down or lose refrigerant. There are a series of YouTube videos detailing this process and they are linked from our website or you can simply search YouTube.

Best regards!

If the tool was affordable people wouldn’t hate the valves so much. Who in their right might wants to pay $500 or more for a core replacement tool. They all leak at some point, I always hated putting my gauges on a system with them. I’m retired now and don’t have to worry about them anymore, I’m just saying.


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