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Nice recommendation

Thanks breathe easy. IQAir will almost certainly be it the next time I get the itch for a makeover of my HVAC system :).
 
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Lennox CADR abuse

Oh, and Lennox almost made me fall out of my chair when I saw they quoted a CADR for their Healthy Climate 16. They quoted something in the thousands of cfm range, whereas CADR can be certified for a maximum of 450 cfm (Procedural Guide for Room Air Cleaner Certification Program, AHAM). There was no mention either of the furnace cfm needed to generate that "CADR".

Someone there is clueless. I'll be charitable and assume that engineering didn't get to review the brochure...
 
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pm
I have a lot of respect for the IQAir people. They know the business and have absolute integrity in their claims of efficiency. In fact they test every device. To answer your question in another post - the IQAir people have had the same objections to the CADR measurement protocol as you have.
I have one their room units and like it. I got to thinking about the life cycle of the filters based on time/fan speed. Depending on the air quality in your home, maybe one would be changing a filter with plenty of life in it yet. I asked for specs on the PreMax and HEPA filter for particle count, pressure drop, CFM, fan motor amps, etc. for fully used filter not a "average". I had one response that didn't answer my questions, so I reasked, no response so far!

I've replaced the PreMax at about six months a second time just lately, VO5 at nine months and the HEPA is coming up now!
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Hi pmeunier;

As you've probably seen.. IQAir is highly regarded. The IQAir Perfect16 is the "best" product of the list I specified. Lennox does abuse the CADR rating and has a bunch of marketing garbage and little useful info in their HC16 package, but besides the marketing spin it still may be a good product hence my question if breathe easy had finished his testing.

Nated,
Recently my respect for IQAir has increased (best efficiency test results) and that for Lennox decreased (in part due to the difficulty in obtaining any hard test data or installation instructions -- all that's available on their web site is fluff, and because they re-direct all meaningful questions to dealers). So, if money was no object I'd now favor the IQAir Perfect 16.
 
Nated, quite right. It could be OK for the price, depending on what you want or need. It costs twice as much as the 4" MERV 13 I use, but if it lasts twice as long while staying above a MERV 13 rating (breathe easy's initial results suggested that the MERV rating degraded with time), I may wish they made a size that fit my furnace's filter track... But given the choice with a new installation, and given my allergies, I think I'd now go for the IQAir Perfect 16. It's strange though how prices vary, though, with a factor of 3 in price for the Perfect 16 alone vs installation included (different stores).
 
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Discussion starter · #26 ·
Watch out for the stores... My experience is IQAir wants to sell 2 models, the 2225 and 2530, and wants to sell them installed. I've actually spoke with them directly because there wasn't a reseller in my area- they will train a HVAC company to install it correctly. MSRP is on their website, but tends to start at $2795.00. Oh, check out the commercial link and look at the Perfect16 pdf there, excellent info. With regard to the stores selling it for less, I've found many selling models I don't know about 2110 2115, etc. Those are the only times I've found the price to be anything but MSRP. That all said, if you find a reputable vendor selling the Perfect16 for an excellent price, and it is indeed a 2225 or 2530, please let me know as well. Thanks.

Nated, quite right. It could be OK for the price, depending on what you want or need. It costs twice as much as the 4" MERV 13 I use, but if it lasts twice as long while staying above a MERV 13 rating (breathe easy's initial results suggested that the MERV rating degraded with time), I may wish they made a size that fit my furnace's filter track... But given the choice with a new installation, and given my allergies, I think I'd now go for the IQAir Perfect 16. It's strange though how prices vary, though, with a factor of 3 in price for the Perfect 16 alone vs installation included (different stores).
 
The reason why the IQAir people insist on a licensed HVAC contractor do the installation of the Perfect 16 is very simple. Good installation is an indespensible element in the performance of any filtration system. Recent research (Siegel -University of Texas, Kosar - University of Illinois - Chicago) showed that just a 10 mm (less than 1/2 inch) gap reduced the performance of a MERV 15 filter to a MeRV 8. Don't make the mistake of buying the "perfect" filtration system and ignoring the importance of proper installation and proper sealing of the duct work.
 
The reason why the IQAir people insist on a licensed HVAC contractor do the installation of the Perfect 16 is very simple. Good installation is an indespensible element in the performance of any filtration system. Recent research (Siegel -University of Texas, Kosar - University of Illinois - Chicago) showed that just a 10 mm (less than 1/2 inch) gap reduced the performance of a MERV 15 filter to a MeRV 8. Don't make the mistake of buying the "perfect" filtration system and ignoring the importance of proper installation and proper sealing of the duct work.
That's a huge gap -- nobody in their right mind would leave one like that. I'm much more concerned about the total leakage than about individual gaps, as 10% leakage total between furnace and filter will pretty much destroy MERV ratings of 12 or above. It's rather obvious since you need to get at least 90% efficiency (starting at MERV 12) in several particle categories to qualify. That "research" sounds like a foregone conclusion to me.

The problem isn't that they require a licensed contractor. It's that they dictate abusive installation fees. I'd like to hear any plausible justifications for installation fees in the thousands of dollars range for just a filter box! That's beyond the pale. You could potentially save more than a grand by buying the filter without their installation fees and still have a licensed HVAC contractor of your choosing install it. It's not that difficult to caulk openings with a flashlight and a caulk gun or put foil tape around furnace doors (as their installation manual suggests), once everything has been secured.
 
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Actually, I think if you asked the HVAC contractors on this site about gaps in HVAC systems, you would find that every one has encountered them larger than 10 mm. The point is that proper installation and sealing of the system play a big role in proper indoor air quality. Sometimes people get too hung up on getting the perfect air cleaning system and lose sight of the bigger picture.

I am not quite sure of what you mean when you say: "they dictate installation fees." It would seem that you would order the system through a local contractor for a turnkey price with product and installation. That price would be between you and the contractor. What am I missing?
 
Actually, I think if you asked the HVAC contractors on this site about gaps in HVAC systems, you would find that every one has encountered them larger than 10 mm. The point is that proper installation and sealing of the system play a big role in proper indoor air quality. Sometimes people get too hung up on getting the perfect air cleaning system and lose sight of the bigger picture.
Well, encountered in old systems where something got detached due to rust, old age, and an accident or two is different from a new install. If I paid for a new system and saw that large a gap between the filter and furnace I'd have a conniption! I see your point though.

I am not quite sure of what you mean when you say: "they dictate installation fees." It would seem that you would order the system through a local contractor for a turnkey price with product and installation. That price would be between you and the contractor. What am I missing?
Maybe I'm the one missing something, but as far as I can tell the only way to get it installed (besides buying from a web site that's not an approved reseller) is to pay the price listed on the iqair web site, which is 3 times more (thousands of dollars more) than what the Perfect 16 units used to sell for a few months ago??
 
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Oh, I see! Just reviewed their site.

It looks like they are trying to not undercut their local dealers. Are there contractors in your area that work with their product? If not, why not contact a contractor you have worked with and have them contact IQAir?
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
That's exactly what they ask you to do if you want to install the product but nobody in the area has worked with them (which is my situation). They asked to have whatever HVAC company I went with contact them for training, etc. and they'd work out the install details with them. I worked a bit on asking IQAir to give me hardware only costs so that the local HVAC company could decide what to charge me for installation. I understand their business practice, and actually think it's rather ingenious and important on several levels... that said, it is a pricey install fee (especially true since if I do all HVAC, the "install" costs somewhat/partially overlap between the products in some areas and I don't really want to double pay or feel like I'm double paying.)

Oh, I see! Just reviewed their site.

It looks like they are trying to not undercut their local dealers. Are there contractors in your area that work with their product? If not, why not contact a contractor you have worked with and have them contact IQAir?
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Oh you are so exactly right breathe easy. Similar to the discussion we had about finding a good 4" housing- you can have the best filter, but if it's not properly sealed and installed, it's not going to do much good. That said... based on what IQAir has told me on the phone, their training is an "install" manual and a 15 minute phone call, or so they've said. And looking at the commercial guide for the product, available at the link following this paragraph, it doesn't look that hard to install for a qualified installer (who am I to say though?). That said, the other thing I've heard rumours of is that they provide the installer with an IQAir particle scanner to provide assurance that the install is working. I haven't followed up on that at this time. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter to me if they give the HVAC contractor the necessary flexibility to do their business and make a fair deal with me (it doesn't need to be the lowest price, but it needs to be fair).

http://www.iqair.us/mint/pepper/ord...downloads/download.php?file=http://www.iqair.us/pdf/perfect16_brochure_comm.pdf

The reason why the IQAir people insist on a licensed HVAC contractor do the installation of the Perfect 16 is very simple. Good installation is an indespensible element in the performance of any filtration system. Recent research (Siegel -University of Texas, Kosar - University of Illinois - Chicago) showed that just a 10 mm (less than 1/2 inch) gap reduced the performance of a MERV 15 filter to a MeRV 8. Don't make the mistake of buying the "perfect" filtration system and ignoring the importance of proper installation and proper sealing of the duct work.
 
Ozone?

Have you looked at the Gapaaxcc1625 from Carrier? It's Merv 15 and worth a look...
It's powered. Words like "ionization" "charged particles" "electric field" "electrical current flow and ion bombardment" (installation instructions) set off ozone alarms in my mind...
 
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Discussion starter · #39 ·
Email was sent to your website sales contact. Let me know if it should go elsewhere. Feel free to share my email with pmeunier, and please respond if you've received it in good order or if I should send it elsewhere.

Thanks!

Nated and pmeunier
Send me your e-mails. just go to our website.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
I have exactly the same concerns as pmeunier. I did spend a goodly amount of time looking at both the Aprilaire 5000 and Carrier GAPA and did not like their approaches (for reasons of power, ozone).

It's powered. Words like "ionization" "charged particles" "electric field" "electrical current flow and ion bombardment" (installation instructions) set off ozone alarms in my mind...
 
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