[Artrose]

Hey Poodle and Artrose how about elaborating on the new technologies. I'm not up on those things but if you guys are fill us in with as much as you can. I thought years ago that power generated from ocean waves had real promise but it looks like that idea hasn't got a lot of play. Do you know if that is dead?
This stuff is interesting and may guide some of the younger guys in a direction they will love.

A couple YouTube videos hopefully might help spin up some interest...........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLrt_38LR3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8SJqAPVaM

 

[hvacker]

The future is an unknown. We could do what we can today for now and let technologies develop in their time.
The obvious is it will take Government intervention. This sticks in many peoples throat but it seems the two things that change an industry or the way we've always done things are competition or demand. Today the demand says "Cheaper"! The competition is over in those unknown countries where they talk funny.
There is not enough will to make the necessary sacrifice.

The Four Corners out here has a power plant. Coal fired and due to shut down in 2022. There is interest in CO2 capture and keep it on line. Sequestered in saline reservoirs. The Government will get involved to keep the coal industry floating. This is demand. From the coal people, the city of Farmington who has a 5% stake, the mines in Black Mesa, Power companies that could limit planned energy alternatives, workers in the plant and all that contribute to it's operation (including those I know in the SM Union.)
This shows how many entities it can take to affect change. A lot of convincing.

Some things are a lot simpler. Like the guy that takes the unwanted fly ash and makes light weight concrete blocks from it. This is easier than CO2.

 

[WAYNE3298]

Coal fired power plant effluents have been cleaned up a tremendous amount over the years. That's the reason you no longer see a pure panic to get rid of them.
The use of government involvement in the energy business and conservation of energy wouldn't be necessary if the movement was self sustaining by the force of economic viability. If the economics are there getting industry on board would be easy some of them would even contribute. As a matter of fact the government would love it because they spend fortunes every year on facilities that they would love a pay back on.

 

[hvacker]

Without competition or demand few things change. The government getting involved comes from the demands of voters. The other demand voters make is cheaper what ever it is. A double bind.
In some cases the raw costs make government intervention necessary. Industry has to get hit in the head before they invest.
When energy management became a big deal was after the oil embargo in the 70's.

At a sales meeting a company made this statement. In terms of energy savings there are 3 levels. He called bronze, silver, and gold. If selling energy savings a bronze pays for itself in 5 years, the silver in 3, and gold is less than 3 preferably in 1.
The reasoning was the person that makes the purchase, probably the CEO, has his future tied to bottom line because he doesn't plan on being with this company past 5-7 years. He's upwardly mobile.
So the payback has to be quick or forgetaboutit. That's industry's attitude and how they survive.

In the 60's it was said you'd never get 20 mpg from a Detroit tank. Not that their engineers couldn't figure it out it was they were in bed with the gasoline producers. There would never have been a mussel car if not for Detroit making big engines that needed higher octane gas and got 10 mpg. Demand from consumers didn't exist because they didn't know these cars could be made street legal. The best performers were tiny European cars with usually 4 bangers.
Anyway, that's my take on American industry.

 

[WAYNE3298]

Most manufacturers I worked with wanted a 3 year payback. They weren't going to be adventurous unless they could get it. I started driving when muscle cars were the rage and very few people wanted the economy four cylinder cars. Most people thought they were unsafe. Everyone wanted to brag about driving 120 MPH and gasoline consumption wasn't even considered. Gasoline was 18.9 cents a gallon unless there was a gas war and I bought it once for 7 cents a gallon. The oil shortage changed all that.

 

[hvacker]

Strange days. Younger people either wanted a VW or a muscle car. I didn't drive muscle cars. I was a hot rodder. I did price a GTO once. $2900. I remember the AC teemed with Shelby to create the Cobra caught my interest. Can't remember the $$ but I think it was under 6K when it was offered.

Most ( the VW crowd) don't want to save $$ as a first goal. It's more about either doing the right thing, not violating the Earth, not being wasteful, sticking it to the corporates. It costs a lot sometimes to save $$.
But not all. I remember a guy with his new 409 Chevy. I told him what he might expect for mileage. About 2 months later he was having his carb re-jetted so he could buy cheaper 25cent/gal gas at the corner. This was not major brand but what was left over's the major's couldn't sell. Same stuff. 25 cents/gal is the cheapest I remember (midwest)

 

[Sapote]

Strange days. Younger people either wanted a VW or a muscle car.
Most ( the VW crowd) don't want to save $$ as a first goal. It's more about either doing the right thing, not violating the Earth, not being wasteful, sticking it to the corporates. It costs a lot sometimes to save $$.

For those, they think money is just an exchange medium and carry less real value than a healthy planet. You can't print the earth as money.

 

[WAYNE3298]

When I started driving all that mattered was fast especially off the line. The earth was just here.

 

[Artrose]

When I started driving all that mattered was fast especially off the line. The earth was just here.

Old guy talking again.........

Simply stated, too many humans give themselves too much credit for destroying environment. Sadly, it's not entirely their fault for thinking that way. As they age and experience life, and the consequences of their misguided actions continue to bear more fruit, most of them will eventually come around.

 

[WAYNE3298]

Hey what's this old guy stuff?

Thought about it and by damn you're right.

 

[hvacker]

For those, they think money is just an exchange medium and carry less real value than a healthy planet. You can't print the earth as money.

Were at the place where we have to buy a healthy planet. We have to spend the money to get there.
Even if those that have been convinced there is no MMGW there is plenty to clean up.

 

[Poodle Head Mikey]

1. I would not live in such an area. It's un-American. Actually it is: anti-American-ism.

2. Solar reflective metal roofing comes in Lots of colors which are not white.

I use white because it's the best - but you can achieve decent solar reflectivity and emissivity performance with colors as well.


PHM
-------

I know of a town that requires people to have metal roof colors approved by the city council before installation because they don't want anyone using white.

Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk

 

[hvacker]

Actually I'm not sure white is a best choice everywhere. Just based on load, most heating loads are greater than cooling loads. Cooling will on average lower the indoor temp 20-30 degrees . Heating might have to raise the temp 70 deg or more in deep winter. It might seem a dark roof would be more efficient in many parts of the country.
Not counting the difference in energy costs. Here we get really cheap NG.

 

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I'm not sure either.

It's a concept that I've pondered for some years. I do agree that white roofing is probably un-needed anywhere that AC isn't needed. But I do not think that even a fully black roof really contributes in any meaningful way to winter time heating of the conditioned space. Even on a bright sunny cold day the attics I've been in have not been hot, or even warm really. And they would have to be in order to conduct any heat downward into the living space.

PHM
----------

Actually I'm not sure white is a best choice everywhere. Just based on load, most heating loads are greater than cooling loads. Cooling will on average lower the indoor temp 20-30 degrees . Heating might have to raise the temp 70 deg or more in deep winter. It might seem a dark roof would be more efficient in many parts of the country.
Not counting the difference in energy costs. Here we get really cheap NG.

 

[WAYNE3298]

The problem with trying to get winter heat from roofing is most attics are vented. Even if you heat the underside of the roof if it's vented the air rises and goes out the vents.

 

[hvacker]

I'm not sure either.

It's a concept that I've pondered for some years. I do agree that white roofing is probably un-needed anywhere that AC isn't needed. But I do not think that even a fully black roof really contributes in any meaningful way to winter time heating of the conditioned space. Even on a bright sunny cold day the attics I've been in have not been hot, or even warm really. And they would have to be in order to conduct any heat downward into the living space.


PHM
----------

Many roofs here are flat except for more recent. I know there is a need to melt snow because of the weight. I have a white rubber roof and I expected some energy savings but didn't see any. It caused me to realize there would have to be more head scratching to understand energy flows.
With pitched roofs, an attic even if vented can ease the temperature transition from OSA. I just don't know how much. Like a friend said, a match burns hot but you can't heat a room with it.

There's a YouTube I haven't seen but it shows a guy wrapping a copper coil around his furnace vent pipe for "free heat" I hope he doesn't kill the draft. But we might be at a point like Detroit was way back where even small gains need to be looked at. I once owned a T'bird built in 86. Very smooth lines, even the door handles. The designers said the design was more about gas millage than style. Chasing any bit that might help. Putting a bunch of small savings should add up. I read about insulated studs for homes.

 

[WAYNE3298]

My point hvacker with vented attics is the heated air is lighter than the air just above the ceiling and if vented for the most part stays as high as it can and then goes out the vent. For that reason I never worried about saving energy with roofing color.

 

[hvacker]

My point hvacker with vented attics is the heated air is lighter than the air just above the ceiling and if vented for the most part stays as high as it can and then goes out the vent. For that reason I never worried about saving energy with roofing color.

I understand your point and the savings if existed wouldn't contribute much probably. In another way supermarkets used to condition the whole space (long ago) but learned they could just condition the first 8 feet or so. Just where their customers were. Customers often wore warm clothes in colder seasons so shopping was more comfortable and liked the cool air in summer. I only learned about the change in design but not about energy savings.
Most homes with cooling will condition the whole structure even though it's not always occupied like at night. A vote for mini's I guess. Or Earth Ships. Those partially bermed houses in Taos NM.

We've all watched the housing industry change their construction habits very little when compared to what has been learned in the last 50 years. Most don't like Government intervention but when an industry resists change what are the options. The market won't control itself. We would still be installing the same machines we did in the 70's.

 

[WAYNE3298]

The cost of energy has been the main driver of energy conservation. Part of that was government intervention but it all started when the cost of oil skyrocketed and you had to wait in line to get it. I never understood willful waste of anything.
Where I disagree with the approach concerning renewable energy is the government edict on things. The world will run out of most energy as we know it but if they want to help it along they should do it with well thought out programs. When they decided that emissions from cars had to be reduced the first things they required increased fuel consumption dramatically. I did a lot of car repair at the time and made a lot of cars run right because the dealers finally told the owners they knew how to make them run right but were not allowed to.

 

[hvacker]

Many businesses are publicly owned. They expect an ROI and contribute the problem of investment by corporates. Between the two little would change except for public demand and/or government involvement. Much of the new ideas come from our National Labs. In our paper they print (usual) weekly patents issued by the labs. Some get licensed to public production. Most new ideas will stall out in the corporates unless the ROI is in their face.

I've led to understand that a few countries, Japan especially, will invest in an idea even though it shows only moderate chance of amounting to anything. Few American corporates will take that risk. I'm hoping the new generation will have a different take.

I know Detroit's early efforts caused other problems. They seemed more of a stop gap effort but helped get us where we are today.
Like you I also was involved in cars. Had to clean spark plugs every 3000 miles,rebuild engine at 50000. A modern mechanic can't work on old Harley's because the clearances are too sloppy. Same goes for a ol' timer HD mechanic can't work on new HD's. This isn't just me. A major HD shop in Canada says the same.
New engines are more like a Swiss watch. There seemed to be a lot more AC compressors fail years ago.

Government's response happens when no one else will make the effort. We would still dumping refrigerant instead of recycling.
I believe Regan was wrong when he said something like "the worst thing to here is I'm from the Government and I'm here to help."
I believe ideally that's the Gov's role. It's run by people just like us and while prone to mistakes it's usually not intentional.