Have a Rational Model # SCC-101 E , thats getting Error Code # 25 . I opened the control box , set dip switch # 1 , and entered diagnostic test mode and ran through them , but nothing appears wrong . Some direction would be great from those who familiar with this model . Thanks
Rational SCC-101
Dakota11
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Thanks for inforo however just got worse
Yep it just got worse not only do I have the error 20 (have tested thermocouples) it is now coming up with error 23 which is a short on the SSR for steam generation, I have tried to test them using the training manual method, however the error 20 stops everything. I suppose my best way is to remove them and test them on the bench as both SSR's supply both steam and hot air heating (dual relay but independent control) so no way to know which one is supposedly shorting, it must be a controls issue as there are no sensors for power, which leads me back to a faulty board again.
Yep they cannot reject my qualifications, I hold a bachelors Degree in Electronics that is what is so frustrating about this if I had a PCB board schematic I could test it.
once again thanks for your help.
Hi thanks for the info on the grease but Rational are quite explicit about it's use, however a reminder is always welcome.
Yep it just got worse not only do I have the error 20 (have tested thermocouples) it is now coming up with error 23 which is a short on the SSR for steam generation, I have tried to test them using the training manual method, however the error 20 stops everything. I suppose my best way is to remove them and test them on the bench as both SSR's supply both steam and hot air heating (dual relay but independent control) so no way to know which one is supposedly shorting, it must be a controls issue as there are no sensors for power, which leads me back to a faulty board again.
Yep they cannot reject my qualifications, I hold a bachelors Degree in Electronics that is what is so frustrating about this if I had a PCB board schematic I could test it.
once again thanks for your help.
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> I suppose my best way is to remove them and test them on the bench as both SSR's supply both steam
> and hot air heating (dual relay but independent control) so no way to know which one is supposedly shorting,
Hurgwash. You, as an degree-carrying type person should know how to test failing or failed SSRs.
The simplest way is to idle the machine, put your amp-clamp on each wire to the heater(s) you are working on. If the SSR is stuck/shorted you will have amps flowing when there shouldn't be. End of test- replace *all* SSRs in the unit per Rational.
The second way is several manufacturers spec a certain amount of voltage drop across a loaded SSR. When the voltage is over spec (.5 volts? I forget), the SSR is considered ready to fail, and you then, again, replace *all* the relays.
> t must be a controls issue as there are no sensors for power
If the computer senses an increasing temperature that continues after it has removed control voltage to the SSR, it knows the SSR has shorted.
We were told to always have our update usb stick in place before turning on a new unit/board, period, then *always* re-do the self test.
> Yep they cannot reject my qualifications
If you are not a Rational certified tech, they get really pissed. Ask my former general manager, a great tech, but had never been to the school.
> and hot air heating (dual relay but independent control) so no way to know which one is supposedly shorting,
Hurgwash. You, as an degree-carrying type person should know how to test failing or failed SSRs.
The simplest way is to idle the machine, put your amp-clamp on each wire to the heater(s) you are working on. If the SSR is stuck/shorted you will have amps flowing when there shouldn't be. End of test- replace *all* SSRs in the unit per Rational.
The second way is several manufacturers spec a certain amount of voltage drop across a loaded SSR. When the voltage is over spec (.5 volts? I forget), the SSR is considered ready to fail, and you then, again, replace *all* the relays.
> t must be a controls issue as there are no sensors for power
If the computer senses an increasing temperature that continues after it has removed control voltage to the SSR, it knows the SSR has shorted.
We were told to always have our update usb stick in place before turning on a new unit/board, period, then *always* re-do the self test.
> Yep they cannot reject my qualifications
If you are not a Rational certified tech, they get really pissed. Ask my former general manager, a great tech, but had never been to the school.
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> would not go into diagnostic mode when putting dip switch 1 to on
Just for everyone's edification, the actual position of that slide switch doesn't matter, it's the change of position that matters when the unit is on.
In other words, you can power up the unit with the switch "on", then after bootup slide to "off", and you can access your service menu.
Just for everyone's edification, the actual position of that slide switch doesn't matter, it's the change of position that matters when the unit is on.
In other words, you can power up the unit with the switch "on", then after bootup slide to "off", and you can access your service menu.
VERY much worth mentioning.
Yes, the change in position of DIP switch 1 is recognized only after the unit is booted up and displaying the MY COOKING screen (the one with the cooking icons). If DIP switch 1 is ALREADY on when the oven boots up, it will not display the SERVICE LEVEL icon.
Thank you, BadBozo.
Hi
if you had read my post properly you would have seen that i cannot put the machine into idle, nor can I test the SSR's as you describe. The machine will not energise the contactor that supplies the SSR's due to the original Error 20.
controls issue. as the machine has the error 20 no heating is applied, therefore how is the computer sensing that the SSR has shorted. As it seems you went to the rational school what did they say about the error 23 from a control point of view.
I value constructive answers on this site and I believe the intention of passing on information to others benefits all, however your answers seem to ridicule me for having a degree
The only part that I can take of any value is the part about the USB stick, which is not mentioned in any of the training manuals.
if you had read my post properly you would have seen that i cannot put the machine into idle, nor can I test the SSR's as you describe. The machine will not energise the contactor that supplies the SSR's due to the original Error 20.
controls issue. as the machine has the error 20 no heating is applied, therefore how is the computer sensing that the SSR has shorted. As it seems you went to the rational school what did they say about the error 23 from a control point of view.
I value constructive answers on this site and I believe the intention of passing on information to others benefits all, however your answers seem to ridicule me for having a degree
The only part that I can take of any value is the part about the USB stick, which is not mentioned in any of the training manuals.
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> i cannot put the machine into idle, nor can I test the SSR's as you describe. The machine will not energise the contactor that supplies the SSR's
To be clear, when you press the "on" button, the computer comes on and displays service 20 (20.1, indicating B1), buzzes for 30 seconds, without K1 energizing?
And this is on a SCC not SCC WE unit, yes?
> ridicule me for having a degree
Think outside the box, my man:
To test the SSRs, just push in contactor K1 manually, even with the unit switched off, with your amp-clamp on one phase at a time. If one is shorted, at least one leg will show amp draw (1 leg only if element is shorted to gnd, 2 legs if just SSR(s) shorted internally)
But, as you say, in any event, the service 20 stops any normal operation. All I can say is, if B1 is good, and is connected to the correct pins, and the board is showing it as bad, the board must be bad.
Does the board accept the USB stick software update when powered up before showing service 20?
Lastly, 3 things to try: Try leaving the unit switched on, and either unplug it, or flip the line breaker 3 times in succesion. On the older SCC units this will do a soft reset.
On the older SCC units, you can hard reset the board by removing the coin battery on the computer board, removing the com cable (cat 5) for 20 seconds or so. Put the battery back in, reconnect the com cable. (Maybe insert the USB update stick here if available) Power up and wait a few while it resets. This does not work on the newer SCC WE units.
I'd also try removing a com bus cable on either the computer or motor etc, and then starting the unit. Communication errors take presidence over some functions, and might confirm the board is bad.
To be clear, when you press the "on" button, the computer comes on and displays service 20 (20.1, indicating B1), buzzes for 30 seconds, without K1 energizing?
And this is on a SCC not SCC WE unit, yes?
> ridicule me for having a degree
Think outside the box, my man:
To test the SSRs, just push in contactor K1 manually, even with the unit switched off, with your amp-clamp on one phase at a time. If one is shorted, at least one leg will show amp draw (1 leg only if element is shorted to gnd, 2 legs if just SSR(s) shorted internally)
But, as you say, in any event, the service 20 stops any normal operation. All I can say is, if B1 is good, and is connected to the correct pins, and the board is showing it as bad, the board must be bad.
Does the board accept the USB stick software update when powered up before showing service 20?
Lastly, 3 things to try: Try leaving the unit switched on, and either unplug it, or flip the line breaker 3 times in succesion. On the older SCC units this will do a soft reset.
On the older SCC units, you can hard reset the board by removing the coin battery on the computer board, removing the com cable (cat 5) for 20 seconds or so. Put the battery back in, reconnect the com cable. (Maybe insert the USB update stick here if available) Power up and wait a few while it resets. This does not work on the newer SCC WE units.
I'd also try removing a com bus cable on either the computer or motor etc, and then starting the unit. Communication errors take presidence over some functions, and might confirm the board is bad.
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They don't go over every service error code at training class- it would take a month. It's all in the book. They focus more on the physicality of the components- removing a motor, etc.
Usually SSR failures are easy to find, as a high limit will trip. You reset and check idle amp draw.
23 refers to the steam circuit rising to over 212 degrees F for more than 60 seconds, 24 is the hot air rising by 200 degrees for 60 seconds without being commanded.
Usually SSR failures are easy to find, as a high limit will trip. You reset and check idle amp draw.
23 refers to the steam circuit rising to over 212 degrees F for more than 60 seconds, 24 is the hot air rising by 200 degrees for 60 seconds without being commanded.
Thanks for the update, unfortunately this is a double unit and as per the panel for the equipment is next to a wall with 1" gap. so trying to get in and hold the contactor in and testing at the same time is almost impossible. Trouble is we are so busy the chef are happy to just use the upper SCC 61E so do not want us moving the unit out. yet when we get busier they will be screaming for the lower unit.
I thank you for the other suggestions and will try them tomorrow and will come back to you with the outcome, I still believe it is a faulty new PCB, but have ordered new SSR's just in case.
Many Thanks
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> next to a wall with 1" gap
Shoot the installer! Rational specifies when a unit is installed, you need 20 inches to the left.
Truthfully, if I was still a tech, and was called to that machine, I'd refuse to even work on it until the factory spec was met, warrentee or not.
Many times I have refused to install/set up or startup a unit that was like yours. Man, the fire would fly out of the contractor/owner/whoever. But, nope, sorry, I wasn't going to do it. I had a new shop manager question my refusal at a military base on a 6 202G machine install. I brought him, the GC and maint folks to the site, handed him my toolbag and said, get in between these machine right next to each other and take the side cover down, think about changing a motor or gas valve, or getting the boiler out for descale. They poured a new concrete slab the same day for us.
Shoot the installer! Rational specifies when a unit is installed, you need 20 inches to the left.
Truthfully, if I was still a tech, and was called to that machine, I'd refuse to even work on it until the factory spec was met, warrentee or not.
Many times I have refused to install/set up or startup a unit that was like yours. Man, the fire would fly out of the contractor/owner/whoever. But, nope, sorry, I wasn't going to do it. I had a new shop manager question my refusal at a military base on a 6 202G machine install. I brought him, the GC and maint folks to the site, handed him my toolbag and said, get in between these machine right next to each other and take the side cover down, think about changing a motor or gas valve, or getting the boiler out for descale. They poured a new concrete slab the same day for us.
Actually 2” is all they require on the left side. 20” is what they prefer.> next to a wall with 1" gap
Shoot the installer! Rational specifies when a unit is installed, you need 20 inches to the left.
Truthfully, if I was still a tech, and was called to that machine, I'd refuse to even work on it until the factory spec was met, warrentee or not.
Many times I have refused to install/set up or startup a unit that was like yours. Man, the fire would fly out of the contractor/owner/whoever. But, nope, sorry, I wasn't going to do it. I had a new shop manager question my refusal at a military base on a 6 202G machine install. I brought him, the GC and maint folks to the site, handed him my toolbag and said, get in between these machine right next to each other and take the side cover down, think about changing a motor or gas valve, or getting the boiler out for descale. They poured a new concrete slab the same day for us.
When we install them and/or do the pre-site check, and we see that there won’t be enough room to service them, we write it up so that they understand: any warranty work will be accompanied by a separate bill for our time to pull the unit out to service it.
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>Actually 2” is all they require
That's on castered table models. From a manual:
Minimum clearance left/ right/ rear 2” (50
mm) (except floor models).if on castered
stand with flexible connections, that allow
unit to be moved forward while still
connected to gas/ele. water
On floor models there must be a minimum clearance
of approx 20” (500 mm) on the left side of
the unit, for installing the power cable.
That's on castered table models. From a manual:
Minimum clearance left/ right/ rear 2” (50
mm) (except floor models).if on castered
stand with flexible connections, that allow
unit to be moved forward while still
connected to gas/ele. water
On floor models there must be a minimum clearance
of approx 20” (500 mm) on the left side of
the unit, for installing the power cable.
Castered or not, the OP’s 101 only requires 2” on the left side.
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339 Posts
> Castered or not, the OP’s 101 only requires 2” on the left side.
They are showing you that if it's set into an alcove, you only need 2 inches to the left, with the understanding (The wrench on the left is crossed out) that it will be on casters and have enough conduit/cord/hose/drain piping to be able service it by pulling it out.
In any event, OP says he has a 61e on top of the 101, so it's not on a table with casters, it's a floor model without casters.
They are showing you that if it's set into an alcove, you only need 2 inches to the left, with the understanding (The wrench on the left is crossed out) that it will be on casters and have enough conduit/cord/hose/drain piping to be able service it by pulling it out.
In any event, OP says he has a 61e on top of the 101, so it's not on a table with casters, it's a floor model without casters.
Regardless of being on casters, in an alcove, stacked, a floor model or table top or whatever... Rational only requires 2” to the left UNLESS it’s a 201 or 202. Those units require the 20” for the trolley.
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Well to tell the truth it is on casters I purchased a special cradle for it, as it seems these models only came with casters if you ordered it at the time of machine purchase.
However as these unit only come with fixed rear wheels and rotating fronts. it is a pain in the neck moving the two machines. Anyway
did the trick of putting the software upgrade usb in first and then turning on, it took the upgrade and all was looking rosy until yes the Error 20 light came on, shut it down changed out the SSR's as the error 23 was still there also, turned on and still getting both error 20 &23, so I am still convinced it is the board, they are sending me another so the saga continues. I am grateful for all the advice that has been given. So a big thank You All.
However as these unit only come with fixed rear wheels and rotating fronts. it is a pain in the neck moving the two machines. Anyway
did the trick of putting the software upgrade usb in first and then turning on, it took the upgrade and all was looking rosy until yes the Error 20 light came on, shut it down changed out the SSR's as the error 23 was still there also, turned on and still getting both error 20 &23, so I am still convinced it is the board, they are sending me another so the saga continues. I am grateful for all the advice that has been given. So a big thank You All.
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Ok. While I'll admit you are demostrably correct with Rational's left side spec of 2 inches to a wall, I am troubled, however, that a tech who works on these units often would, apparently be comfortable about installing it this way, knowing the next tech to come along will have to drag the unit(s) out to troubleshoot and work on it, like OP here. Even now as he tells us is has casters, but is still in a difficult-to-access place on his cook line.
I could swear that during training, Pete (Mr Ego incarnate
, specifically said they wanted to see 20 inches to the left, and we should reject an installation that didn't have that. That, however, was 11+ years ago, so my memory may be fuzzy.
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339 Posts
Did you get a chance to remove the battery and the com cable to do a hard reset?
Oh it makes me sick installing them that way. I absolutely hate it. It makes everything SO much more difficult. But if I refuse to install it that way the dealer will find someone who will AND report us to the boys in Illinois. It goes against our quarterly score and blah blah blah blah. I remember you talking about how the politics were killing this industry. I echoed that much later in a separate thread. It’s a shame but it’s true.Ok. While I'll admit you are demostrably correct with Rational's left side spec of 2 inches to a wall, I am troubled, however, that a tech who works on these units often would, apparently be comfortable about installing it this way, knowing the next tech to come along will have to drag the unit(s) out to troubleshoot and work on it, like OP here. Even now as he tells us is has casters, but is still in a difficult-to-access place on his cook line.
I could swear that during training, Pete (Mr Ego incarnate
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I wished that'd been observed in 2006 when two SCC101Es were installed in one of OUR kitchens. Side-by-side and maybe 2" apart...perched upon factory stands (no casters)...which are THEN set atop a curb with welded corner braces.I could swear that during training, Pete (Mr Ego incarnate
You're NOT moving either of THOSE ovens on their stands AT ALL. Doing so would require lifting the fronts legs up and over the corner braces, a slide forward...and then set down upon a trough drain floor grate (like what's typical in from of kettles/tilt skillets) - 12" below.
NOPE. Not doing that.
We have a special flatbed cart that can be taken there, then raised/lowered hydraulically (like a jack) to find the perfect elevation for sliding just the oven onto...whenever we need to gain access into the side compartment for doing something so mundane as replacing a bad SSR.
I only did that ONCE by myself. Since then, I've always gotten help.
ANYWAY...
I'm told that one of those two ovens was Rational's commemorative 15,000th oven sold in the U.S. Siegfried Meister himself (Rational's founder) flew from Germany to attend the celebration.
It remains apparent that the company's FOUNDER wasn't too concerned about the minimal space between those ovens.
He probably didn't know any better, though.
OH...the irony of it all.
I remember your thread. To ME - the fundamental "values" that drives us (personally) in our occupation is focused on our daily face-to-face with customers...and the opportunities to be a hero several times a day. That's been MY motivation anyway...along with the paycheck.
I started out doing this work for a privately owned company - working for a man who'd expanded his business to twelve service branches throughout the Southeast. A former president of CFESA. From what I gather - a man who had a passion for this industry sector.
He sold out to Ecolab.
I'd heard later later that he regretted that decision due to what had become of the company that his family had started. What it had become did NOT fit his mantra. Too late now.
I'm sure he made a "mint" from that transaction, but I've read that he couldn't stay away. Several years later, he started ANOTHER that competed (quite successfully) with his former one.
On the other hand, what's become of his old company? Sold by Ecolab to an private equity/investment firm. An organization that has absolutely NO knowledge of the business...but pays people TO do that - for THEIR specific interests in blossoming sales figures and gain profits on their investment.
Over time, if the numbers they crunch and expect to see don't prove to be what they'd expected - heads roll and people are let go.
Conglomerates and e-commerce.
These business model resounds over and over again these days. For US? First in the equipment manufacturing industry got sucked up in it...and now in the equipment parts & service sector. The "Walmart" and "Amazon" ways that might eventually ALSO crush the independent "mom & pop" versions of OUR industry.
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