[roesslerhw]

Why install a r-22 unit when in 3 years they will no longer be made. If you will be able to buy r-22 in the future it wont be cheap. Converting over will not be cheap, expansion valves wont match up and all 13 seer units are going to have txv's. All that oil you cant remove if changed over. 410A units are mostly being made now and very available. There is no negetive to installing r410a units only positives. Why take a chance at having issues in the future, unless you are only worried about yourself and getting the job by being cheaper. I myself only install r410a and feel good knowing I wont have angry customers down the road.

 

[timebuilder]

Why would I as a consumer want to buy "old" technology when "new" is here? Sure it's proven itself and it works fine, but if I can buy something that is more futureproof, I will. If R410 was only a year or 2 in use, then I'd say wait, and did, but its here now and R22 units wont be produced for much longer. Plus its "better" for the "environment" or so were told.
To each his own, but unless a customer comes in insisting on R22 units, I wont sell em except in special circumstances.
Of course Im a Carrier dealer so Im partially biased by the warrantys. But as a consumer I research and I myself always try to buy the newest technologies.

1) Why would I as a consumer want to buy "old" technology when "new" is here? Because the technology, per se, is basically identical. All that is different is the chemical composition of the gas that moves the heat out of your home. A "new technology" would be solid state panels in the home that chill the air directly. This R-410A and R-22 technology is almost the same technology that was patented by Willis Carrier.

2) Sure it's proven itself and it works fine, but if I can buy something that is more futureproof, I will. A new unit R-410A unit is NOT "futureproof." You would use the unit you buy today until it is time to replace that unit, usually 12-15 years. At that time, you will be able to take advantage of any "newer" technologies, should they exist. Maybe, at that time, you will have a unit that uses 10% less electricity. Right now, you can probably achieve that savings with the "old" refrigerant. So, there are new tools, new hardware, new marketing, and new operating pressures. But new technology? No, that's the same.

3) If R410 was only a year or 2 in use, then I'd say wait, and did, but its here now and R22 units wont be produced for much longer. Plus its "better" for the "environment" or so were told. According to the EPA, because R-22 is an HCFC, it is not as stable as a CFC, and breaks up more readily in the lower atmosphere. So, it does not migrate to cause stratospheric ozone depletion. R-22 has an Ozone Depletion Factor of 0.05, while R-12, used widely and vented for literally decades, has the baseline Ozone Depletion Factor of 1.0. Of special interest is that countries like China and India did not sign the Montreal Protocol, and they will use whatever ozone-depleting chemical compounds they like. This makes the Protocol a political statement, more than effective global scientific policy.

The only "charge" (sic) against R-22 is that it is a "greenhouse gas." If you think that greenhouse gasses are are dangerous, then stop breathing. Just getting Mr. Gore to stop burning hundreds of thousands of pounds of fossil fuel while he jets all around the globe preaching environmental doom would be more than enough to make up for whatever small traces of R-22 that are "de minimus" amounts released during good faith recovery processes every year. And, R-22 may not be "made" for much longer, but it will "be around" for decades, just like R-12 will be.

4) To each his own, but unless a customer comes in insisting on R22 units, I wont sell em except in special circumstances.
Of course Im a Carrier dealer so Im partially biased by the warrantys. But as a consumer I research and I myself always try to buy the newest technologies. Believe me, I understand the pressure that dealers are under. So much spin, bad information and false assumptions, what's a consumer to think? But remember, there is precious little "new" technology in this deal, and a lot of hype.

And, fear.

 

[dash]

1) Why would I as a consumer want to buy "old" technology when "new" is here? Because the technology, per se, is basically identical. All that is different is the chemical composition of the gas that moves the heat out of your home. A "new technology" would be solid state panels in the home that chill the air directly. This R-410A and R-22 technology is almost the same technology that was patented by Willis Carrier.

2) Sure it's proven itself and it works fine, but if I can buy something that is more futureproof, I will. A new unit R-410A unit is NOT "futureproof." You would use the unit you buy today until it is time to replace that unit, usually 12-15 years. At that time, you will be able to take advantage of any "newer" technologies, should they exist. Maybe, at that time, you will have a unit that uses 10% less electricity. Right now, you can probably achieve that savings with the "old" refrigerant. So, there are new tools, new hardware, new marketing, and new operating pressures. But new technology? No, that's the same.

3) If R410 was only a year or 2 in use, then I'd say wait, and did, but its here now and R22 units wont be produced for much longer. Plus its "better" for the "environment" or so were told. According to the EPA, because R-22 is an HCFC, it is not as stable as a CFC, and breaks up more readily in the lower atmosphere. So, it does not migrate to cause stratospheric ozone depletion. R-22 has an Ozone Depletion Factor of 0.05, while R-12, used widely and vented for literally decades, has the baseline Ozone Depletion Factor of 1.0. Of special interest is that countries like China and India did not sign the Montreal Protocol, and they will use whatever ozone-depleting chemical compounds they like. This makes the Protocol a political statement, more than effective global scientific policy.

The only "charge" (sic) against R-22 is that it is a "greenhouse gas." If you think that greenhouse gasses are are dangerous, then stop breathing. Just getting Mr. Gore to stop burning hundreds of thousands of pounds of fossil fuel while he jets all around the globe preaching environmental doom would be more than enough to make up for whatever small traces of R-22 that are "de minimus" amounts released during good faith recovery processes every year. And, R-22 may not be "made" for much longer, but it will "be around" for decades, just like R-12 will be.

4) To each his own, but unless a customer comes in insisting on R22 units, I wont sell em except in special circumstances.
Of course Im a Carrier dealer so Im partially biased by the warrantys. But as a consumer I research and I myself always try to buy the newest technologies. Believe me, I understand the pressure that dealers are under. So much spin, bad information and false assumptions, what's a consumer to think? But remember, there is precious little "new" technology in this deal, and a lot of hype.

And, fear.

WOW!!

Hope you sell that R22 system today and are around to hear what the homeowner has to say in 2014/15 ,or sooner ,about your advice.

 

[timebuilder]

Why install a r-22 unit when in 3 years they will no longer be made. If you will be able to buy r-22 in the future it wont be cheap. Converting over will not be cheap, expansion valves wont match up and all 13 seer units are going to have txv's. All that oil you cant remove if changed over. 410A units are mostly being made now and very available. There is no negetive to installing r410a units only positives. Why take a chance at having issues in the future, unless you are only worried about yourself and getting the job by being cheaper. I myself only install r410a and feel good knowing I wont have angry customers down the road.

There will be lots and lots of R-22 available. Every machine that is retired and replaced will contribute R-22 that can be tested and resold as "new."

Converting will not be necessary for almost all machines. When it comes time to convert the remaining units, the proposed conversion refrigerant is R-407C.

No machines manufactured now will have to meet a future SEER standard, so you can anticipate no "angry customers" if they buy R-22 machines with current SEER ratings. The SEER ratings of current R-410A machines will not get any better than the day they are purchsed.

However, if someone discovers that R-22 is not so dangerous a substance to the environment, and that is was heavily pushed by people who make replacement AC units, and that most of this is EPA hype, then yes, there will be a few "angry customers." I'm a taxpayer, and I'm an "angry customer" already.

Remember, this whole thing is not being pushed because it is "better." It's being pushed to fill a void that the government is creating.

 

[timebuilder]

WOW!!

Hope you sell that R22 system today and are around to hear what the homeowner has to say in 2014/15 ,or sooner ,about your advice.

Not only will I be here, I will be telling people about this scheme based on faulty science and political maneuvering.

 

[CottyGee]

I don't get what you have against R-410a. You've clearly got an axe to grind and an agenda - I just don't know what it is yet.

What exactly *IS* your beef with R-410a? You've really provided me with no good reason as a consumer to not buy R-410a. I don't care if it's some vast governmental conspiracy or a political maneuver or hype by the manufacturers (tho heaven knows why they would have any motivation to change the R-22 status quo, since people aren't going out and buying new systems just to get out of their R-22 machines). None of that matters to me.

I think the new refrigerant is adequately proven. Ten-plus years and a zillion units should be enough "real world" testing, don't you think?

It seems to me you're resentful of "having" to change - learn new systems, buy new tools, understand newer methods and technologies that support the new refrigerant. That's my guess anyway. But that's the way the cookie crumbles - and crumble it will, with or without you. It won't matter much to me, because I'll be having my system serviced with the industry standard refrigerant.

 

[timebuilder]

I don't get what you have against R-410a. You've clearly got an axe to grind and an agenda - I just don't know what it is yet.

What exactly *IS* your beef with R-410a? You've really provided me with no good reason as a consumer to not buy R-410a. I don't care if it's some vast governmental conspiracy or a political maneuver or hype by the manufacturers (tho heaven knows why they would have any motivation to change the R-22 status quo, since people aren't going out and buying new systems just to get out of their R-22 machines). None of that matters to me.

I think the new refrigerant is adequately proven. Ten-plus years and a zillion units should be enough "real world" testing, don't you think?

It seems to me you're resentful of "having" to change - learn new systems, buy new tools, understand newer methods and technologies that support the new refrigerant. That's my guess anyway. But that's the way the cookie crumbles - and crumble it will, with or without you. It won't matter much to me, because I'll be having my system serviced with the industry standard refrigerant.

Heck, I thought that my newspaper writing skills made my position clear.

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

I believe that there is no crisis, other than an artificial one created by a few misguided individuals. If all the world stopped using CFC's, for example, then reducing their use would have a positive impact on ozone depletion. However, the two most populated nations are not on board, making this a charade.

As far as R-22 is concerned, there is no need to eliminate it. Period. It is not easily vented by a consumer, so venting is not an issue. Technicians capture and recycle it.

Bottom line: R-410A does nothing to promote the health, happiness, or the air-conditioned, jet-smooth ride of the American consumer. R-410A is something that does its job almost as well as the existing refrigerant. "Almost as well" because of the added cost of tools and equipment that are always passed along to the consumer.

So, the real question is "why should you use an R-410A machine?" If you can't adequately answer THAT question, you should give yourself pause.

As of yet, the answers to that question are completely underwhelming, the motives are questionable, and the marketing is based on fear and loathing.

As a good consumer in a capitalist society, it is up to me to evaluate all products I use with my own level of diligence. As of yet, no one has given me a reason for R-410A except "we say so."

 

[catmanacman]

going from r 22 to 410 was a money thing by same as r 12 the price of freon was dirt cheap so there was not enough money in 12and22look at the price of410a

 

[dawgtchrr]

Bottom line is that 410A is a more efficient refrigerant at moving btu's out of a 40 deg evaporator. Systems can become more efficient just by changing to it. Larger coil sizes are a result of trying to increase the SEER ratings. 410A actually helps manufacturers get to that higher SEER rating.

Those 20 year-old Manifold gages and hoses you've been holding onto should be replaced by now anyway.

 

[kubota]

One reason to stick with R22 - if your current lineset is buried behind sheet rock. r410 requires new linesets that are rated for the higher pressures. Unless you are willing to reroute or tear out sheet rock, R22 is the only option.

True, higher seers are 410. But you will never recover the price difference from power bills, even in 12-15 years. If you wait another 12-15 to do 410, the whole line of systems will be all 410 giving you more of a price range to choose from.

 

[Shophound]

Ah yes, the endless 410A vs. 22 debate. What should mitigate this discussion are facts, political/economic aspects notwithstanding:

FACT: If I'm not mistaken, after 2010 there can be no more equipment made with R22 as the refrigerant. This will mean that any contractor who wishes to sell new equipment and support it (once 22 equipment inventories are depleted) will have to accept 410A (given there can be other non-22 based alternatives used...but aren't currently being discussed).

FACT: R22 will not undergo complete phase-out until 2020. Reductions in production are ongoing as of now. This will escalate price, with the potential for added taxes over time in an attempt to force users to seek alternate refrigerants.

Now, for discussion fodder:

SPECULATION: Virgin R22 cost vs. reclaimed R22 cost. How this will play out over next 13 years.

FOR DISCUSSION: Reliability/efficiency of comparable equipment using R22 vs. R410A. Published data from independent testing agencies. After 2010 this emphasis would appear to be diminished. For now it has about a three to five year shelf life before 410A is the norm, as is 13 SEER now (altering the "good" "better" "best" sales approach).

 

[CottyGee]

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

Okay, whatever. Unreal.

 

[timebuilder]

Okay, whatever. Unreal.

What I think is "unreal" the the instantaneous, unquestioning nature of this changeover process.

I think it is important to know, as was asked by the person who started this thread, that while you have a chance to choose between the two systems, you should understand what basis you might use to make that choice. I like to include the "why" you have that choice now, and why you will not have the ability to make a choice soon.

I will be happy to install these units when they are the only choice. You can't get blood from a stone, or a reasonable argument out of a bureaucrat. What we have here, as the line from Cool Hand Luke says, is "a failure to communicate." Knowledge is power. Let's have some of it.

This is a self-created crisis. While there is real, hard evidence that CFC's were damaging the ozone layer, our attempts to eliminate them from use in a handful of nations is almost comical in its vanity. Without China and India, cessation of CFC production is meaningless. I do have a way we can be effective with them: tell them that only THEY will be able to make R-410A machines, if they agree to make no CFC's. Problem solved.

The cessation of R-22 production is even more imaginative. With a low Ozone Depletion factor, good efficiency, and low cost, the idea that R-22 is a greenhouse gas, when very little is vented form home appliances, is almost a transparent excuse to remove it from use. Is a new refrigerant necessary? Why not let the market decide? Because, it's that old "we know better than you do" argument. We are smart scientists and regulators, and what we can't get you to vote for, we will force you to do by regulatory edict.

Someone mentioned that an R-410A unit can do a better job of moving BTU's out of a 40 degree evaporator. That's probably true, but that effect only happens in a machine designed for its use. So, the machine design follows the refrigerant they must now use. I'm forced to wonder aloud about what would happen if you adapted that system for use with R-22. Would it approach that efficiency? We will never know.

Call me skeptical, but I would not be surprised that if the engineers at Carrier had tried to make a better R-22 machine, one as good as their R-410A machines, they could have. I'd bet that Copeland could make an R-22 compressor that is a good as their new R-410A compressor. There is now no incentive for them to do so. We are buying the changeover. Hook, line, and sinker. Like sheep before our regulators, we are opening not our mouths.

So, choose what makes you feel good, because there is not much of an advantage, if any, to buying an R-410A machine right now. If you choose an R-22 machine, and it makes no difference to me if you do, you will have parts, service, and yes, refrigerant that has been recovered from other machines and tested for purity to the ARI-700 standards, just as new, "virgin" refrigerant is tested. Both types of machines will be purring away in backyards all over America 15 years from now.

You can buy a brand new R-410A machine and pat yourself on the back for having the latest, greatest, first on your block, wowie zowie, air conditioning wonder. But, that's about it.

 

[kubota]

Hey guys we are talking about chemical compunds here, not which religion is the best. We can do this without getting upset .

 

[timebuilder]

I'm not upset. Not at all.

One of the problems with posting in forums is that it is difficult to be succinct and yet carry the correct emotional tone. What can seem "dry" on paper (or on a screen) can seem much more entertaining with a tone of voice that indicates sarcasm, playfulness, or disappointment.

I'll be happy to install what my customers need, but I think they should know, at least for now, why those choices are limited, and in whose interest it is that those limited choices were established.

 

[timebuilder]

Ah yes, the endless 410A vs. 22 debate. What should mitigate this discussion are facts, political/economic aspects notwithstanding:

FACT: If I'm not mistaken, after 2010 there can be no more equipment made with R22 as the refrigerant. This will mean that any contractor who wishes to sell new equipment and support it (once 22 equipment inventories are depleted) will have to accept 410A (given there can be other non-22 based alternatives used...but aren't currently being discussed).

Once we can only make one choice for a new machine, that is that. The only R-22 machines available will be those manufactured before the cutoff date. We have an opportunity to make choices now, but that opportunity will be taken away, and soon.

FACT: R22 will not undergo complete phase-out until 2020. Reductions in production are ongoing as of now. This will escalate price, with the potential for added taxes over time in an attempt to force users to seek alternate refrigerants.

I'm not sure of that. Because this is unlike automotive use of R-12, in that the changeover has already started several years before the cutoff, and in larger numbers than the first R134A vehicles, we may not see a precipitous rise in the cost of R-22.

Now, for discussion fodder:

SPECULATION: Virgin R22 cost vs. reclaimed R22 cost. How this will play out over next 13 years.

Each time a car was traded in, the car went to someone else, and that person needed R-12 to make the AC work. When we retire an R-22 AC machine, we will collect the refrigerant, and that machine will not be passed on to another owner who needs R-22 to make it work. Instead, the machine is scrapped, and the refrigerant enters the recycled refrigerant stream. If all cars were scrapped that had used R-12, it very likely would have remained inexpensive.

FOR DISCUSSION: Reliability/efficiency of comparable equipment using R22 vs. R410A. Published data from independent testing agencies. After 2010 this emphasis would appear to be diminished. For now it has about a three to five year shelf life before 410A is the norm, as is 13 SEER now (altering the "good" "better" "best" sales approach).

Time will allow the R-410A machine, being the only permitted game in town, to grow in efficiency as the focus of an entire industry of engineers and R&D departments.

The disappointment for me is that we crafted a problem and we have crafted the solution, so discussions of relative value become moot in a few years.

 

[CottyGee]

This is comical. Dude, there's no choice. It's coming. Doesn't matter why. It's the next new thing. You can pontificate all you want about the reasons and speculate and grand stand on a soapbox until the cows come home. But it's a done deal. Man....

 

[Guest]

I don't know about Goodman, but with some manufacturers, in certain coil lines, the R-22 coil is exactly the same as the R-410 except for the metering device.
In such cases, if the coil is brand new, by changing the metering device you will convert the coil. No further modification is required.

 

[mflesh]

In the land of entrepreneurs, I don't believe it at all that a retrofit is not possible. If no one has thought of this, please let me know so that I can get started on it now and make millions. If someone hasn't found a way now, they will find a way before not too long I guarantee it.

 

[timebuilder]

This is comical. Dude, there's no choice. It's coming. Doesn't matter why. It's the next new thing. You can pontificate all you want about the reasons and speculate and grand stand on a soapbox until the cows come home. But it's a done deal. Man....

Comical?

That must be the look on your face as a government agency gets friendly. Doesn't matter why? Heck, you should enjoy it then.

For the next two years or so, you do have a choice.

Whether you want to exercise that choice is up to you. Just be sure about why that choice is going away. It's not because you needed a new refrigerant, that much is unequivocally true. You can try an belittle the messenger, but that won't change the fact that you and every other consumer is being sold a bill of goods by the EPA. And make no mistake, the consumer will be the only one who pays.

As for me, I'll be installing the R-410A units that you and the rest of the American consumers didn't need.