[Imtired]

Per a moderators suggestion, here is a thread about the same issue that dapper9030 is having on this thread.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=172834

Summed up[ my XL16I runs all the time, the house is 2067 under air and the Unit installed is 4 ton, the air handler is I believe a 3 and half ton Air Handler. But variable speed and is supposed to support the 4 ton compressor.

Model Numbers are as follows;

4TTX6048B1000A
4TEE3F40A1000A

I used to have a Janitrol that worked great, never had an issue with cooling.

Normally my thermostat is set to 79, during hot days this unit will climb as high as 83 and 84 degrees. Did I mention then unit is always running on high speed? This thing is sucking 75 Percent of my energy consumption, dollars and cents $280 per month Give or take 20 bucks.

HAs anyone found a solution for this problem? Any suggestion that have not been mentioned on the previous thread?


Thanks

 

[Imtired]

Would a mod be generous enough to edit the tittle of this thread, so it does not matches the other thread and confuses people. I tried editing after submitting and was unable to do so. Maybe make the title Trane XL16i not cooling properly.


Thanks

 

[dan sw fl]

The Two stage MYSTERY continues ...

Per a moderators suggestion, here is a thread about the same issue that dapper9030 is having on this thread.

Summed up my XL16I runs all the time,
the house is 2067 under air and
the Unit installed is 4 ton,
the air handler is I believe a 3 and half ton Air Handler.

But variable speed and is supposed to support the 4 ton compressor.
Model Numbers are as follows;
4TTX6048B1000A
4TEE3F40A1000A

Normally my thermostat is set to 79, during hot days this unit will climb as high as 83 and 84 degrees.

Did I mention then unit is always running on high speed?

This thing is sucking 75 Percent of my energy consumption, dollars and cents $280 per month Give or take 20 bucks.

Has anyone found a solution for this problem?
Any suggestion that have not been mentioned on the previous thread?

Have you had a duct leakage test performed ?

Are you leaving any windows or sliding glass doors open?
In other words, ...

3.6 ____ kW for a 4-ton
720 ____ Total hours in a month (24 * 30)
2,592 ____ kW- Hrs / month

the system is obviously not providing much cooling.

Do you live in Phoenix?

What is the air flow ?
What is the air handler outlet temperature at 79'F inlet?

What did the local TRANE factory repr say when he reviewed the system?

 

[beenthere]

Changed title to your sugested title.

The info Dan asked would be nce.

Also.
And guage and line temp readings the techs may have recorded and left.
What thermostat.

 

[dan sw fl]

This XL16i problem should be taken as a VERY SERIOUS issue by TRANE repr / Corporate office and solved whether it is an equipment or an installation issue.

I don't think I need to follow in the foot steps of these situations.
You would think that a lawyer would have caught onto this XL16i issue
and started a US class action lawsuit.

How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?
ONCE, but only if the Root Cause is actually addressed.

 

[beenthere]

Most problems are install related on any system.

The 16i, is a bit more prone to install problems. Because the installer should follow the wiring instructions of the outdoor unit, and not the instructions of the air handler. As you would with most other systems.

Its an installer problem.
Not a Trane manufacturing problem.

Trane, as all other manufacturers, have training courses. Weather or not a company sends their techs to those classes is another story.

 

[Imtired]

Have you had a duct leakage test performed ?

Are you leaving any windows or sliding glass doors open?
In other words, ...

3.6 ____ kW for a 4-ton
720 ____ Total hours in a month (24 * 30)
2,592 ____ kW- Hrs / month

the system is obviously not providing much cooling.

Do you live in Phoenix?

What is the air flow ?
What is the air handler outlet temperature at 79'F inlet?

What did the local TRANE factory repr say when he reviewed the system?

Thanks for the prompt response, I live in South Florida. I had FPL do a leak test approximately a year ago and the gentleman did not find any problems. We do not leave any doors or windows open. I suffer from seasonal allergies so we essentially run the AC all year round.

I had a technician here last week and although I did not get specifics, he stated that there should be a 20 degree variance from what goes in and comes out the top of the handler, he alleged at the time that due to low free-on there was only a 16 degree variance. I do not have a meter but will purchase one tomorrow and do my own testing.

They have never sent a Trane rep to my house, despite the fact that I had asked for it numerous times. Heck even when they gave me the free warranty extension it was done over the phone when i contacted Trane directly but they never came out. I think the airflow is set at 1400 CFM's

If your calculations are correct then that is about what I am using for electricity, so where are the savings? I did not realize that a central air unit was using so much power. Since the unit is running on high most of the time, then the power consumption will be higher correct?

Changed title to your sugested title.

The info Dan asked would be nce.

Also.
And guage and line temp readings the techs may have recorded and left.
What thermostat.

Thanks!

 

[beenthere]

If the air flow is set to 1400CFM, that could be a big part of your problem. Not enough air.

 

[wraujr]

xL16i Can Work

As a point of comparison, I have a 9 month old xL16i AC (not heat pump), 3 ton cooling 2100 sq. ft and today at 4PM its 98 outdoor and system is maintaining 76 indoor at 47% and cycling. As mentioned, you probably have an installation problem so for the momemt drop your fixation that the xL16i is a flawed product.

What size was your old system???

Did you get a new thermostat and what model did you get???

Was lineset (copper tubing) replaced??? If not what are the diameters of the tubing??

It shouldn't be low on refrigerant unless it has a leak or was improperly charged. Did tech recharge and get temp diff to 20 deg???

Why/Who set the CFM to 1400 as 1600 is typical (4x400) for a 4 ton???

Very simply, if tstat is 79 then unit should have no problem maintaining this on days when outdoor reaches 100. Thats a 20 deg indoor/outdoor design.

 

[Swampfox]

Ive seen several that would not switch to 2nd stage, compressor had to be replaced, make sure tech verifies compressor will engage 2nd stage

 

[Imtired]

As a point of comparison, I have a 9 month old xL16i AC (not heat pump), 3 ton cooling 2100 sq. ft and today at 4PM its 98 outdoor and system is maintaining 76 indoor at 47% and cycling. As mentioned, you probably have an installation problem so for the momemt drop your fixation that the xL16i is a flawed product.

What size was your old system???

Did you get a new thermostat and what model did you get???

Was lineset (copper tubing) replaced??? If not what are the diameters of the tubing??

It shouldn't be low on refrigerant unless it has a leak or was improperly charged. Did tech recharge and get temp diff to 20 deg???

Why/Who set the CFM to 1400 as 1600 is typical (4x400) for a 4 ton???

Very simply, if tstat is 79 then unit should have no problem maintaining this on days when outdoor reaches 100. Thats a 20 deg indoor/outdoor design.

Great questions and thanks for sharing your experience and expertise!

My old unit was 4 tons, I did get a new thermostat, do not know the model but is a touch screen thermostat.

They did replace the cooper tubing as they said the old tubing was inadequate but I do not know the diameter. According to the gentleman he said that the temperature difference was 20 degrees after he added refrigerant.

I could be wrong on the CFM's but last I heard that is what it was set to. I talked to Trane today and they agreed that something does not sound right and suggested I get another company to look into it. I have a diff company coming out tomorrow, I will ask all the questions and post the answers tomorrow!

Thanks

 

[catmanacman]

have them check to make sure the txv is working properly we have replaced several this summer that were not working right reducing the overall capacity of the air conditioner

 

[wraujr]

First, let the new guy know that it has never worked well and you beleive there are installations issues. Do not give any guesses as to what you think the problem is.

Let him know that refrigerant was recently added.

Ask him to verify thermostat, air handler, and outdoor unit wiring. (use diagram in Outdoor Unit Installation Guide)

Ask him to verify dip switch settings on air handler control board.

Ask him to verify thermostat settings.

I know its not easy, but you may half to pay for 0.5 to 1.0 hour labor to have him/her fully inspect and test system... But given your level of unhapiness it might be money well spent. If you do spend money, its fair to ask that all the settings and measurements be recorded and delivered to you for your records.

 

[smittyii]

First, let the new guy know that it has never worked well and you beleive there are installations issues. Do not give any guesses as to what you think the problem is.

Let him know that refrigerant was recently added.

Ask him to verify thermostat, air handler, and outdoor unit wiring. (use diagram in Outdoor Unit Installation Guide)

Ask him to verify dip switch settings on air handler control board.

Ask him to verify thermostat settings.

I know its not easy, but you may half to pay for 0.5 to 1.0 hour labor to have him/her fully inspect and test system... But given your level of unhapiness it might be money well spent. If you do spend money, its fair to ask that all the settings and measurements be recorded and delivered to you for your records.

ditto , but i would also ask which tstat was installed. its an important feature to all 2 stage systems. you can't just throw whatever is in the truck on the wall anymore.

 

[dan sw fl]

KNOW

As mentioned, you probably have an installation problem so for the momemt drop your fixation that the xL16i is a flawed product.

2. Why/Who set the CFM to 1400 as 1600 is typical (4x400) for a 4 ton???

1. Very simply, if tstat is 79 then unit should have no problem maintaining this on days when outdoor reaches 100. Thats a 20 deg indoor/outdoor design.

1. South FL design (1% ASHRAE) temperature is probably 93 or 94'F ! !! ( NOT 100'F)

2. 350 cfm / ton * 4 = 1,400 cfm which is DEFINITELY TYPICAL for South FL
for any contractor who knows
he is in South FL.

 

[Imtired]

The other company was home yesterday, this is what we got so far. There where some errors in the way y1 and y2 where wired. I did not get all the details but essentially the unit would not have been able to get a call to discharge? Also the jumper cable in the air handler was not connected, he said maybe the humidity corroded the cable. The thermostat was not wired properly either, my thermostat unit is a TCONT802AS32DA, again I think it was something to do with y1 and y2. I hovered over him the whole time, I asked him if he did not mind as I wanted to learn about my system and he was really good about it.

In addition to this they had the dip switches set for a 5 ton unit when my unit is 4 ton and the cfm was set to 450 per don and we scaled it back to the 400 cfm. He mentioned that the incorrect wiring would not make the unit run better or colder but it certainly would make the unit energy efficient. One thing that he was going to look into with Trane today, while cheeking the compressor with electric meter and the refrigerant gauges he noticed that if he would disconnect one wire of the three cables that go from the compressor to the air handler, there was not big difference or a pressure drop. He thought that maybe he should have seen at least a 20 pound drop, but he was not sure if that was normal for this unit or not and he is going to look into it.

I do not think my problems are resolved yet, the unit cycles not from low to high really often, so lets say it will run on high for 10 minutes and then i hear it drop to low gear for one to two minute and back to high for another 10. I have the thermostat set to 76 so we will see if at least we are able to keep the temperature today. One thing we noticed was that when the ac was off, my house would get warm fairly fast. The insulation is supposed to be sufficient according the the inspector from the Electric company, I am considering throwing some of that popcorn in the attic to see if it helps. I do have plenty of windows so, I was thinking about testing with all the blinds closed etc to see if things are better.

When checking the air out of the unit yesterday, it was coming out at 60 degrees and going in was around 80, he said the variance was fine.

We went trough the settings in the thermostat and the only thing I was unsure was line 0220 and 0230. It says 3 cycles per hour is recommended on the manual and both stages where set 6 and we left it at 6.

We will see what happens today!

 

[beenthere]

When he comes back, have him set them to 3.

6 is why its cycling low high low high so much.

 

[wraujr]

"South FL design (1% ASHRAE) temperature is probably 93 or 94'F ! !! ( NOT 100'F)"

Never said design temp was 100*, what I said was if ID = 79 and OD = 100 then delta is 21* which AC should be able to meet.

"350 cfm / ton * 4 = 1,400 cfm which is DEFINITELY TYPICAL for South FL "

Didn't say typical for South FL, said typical as in installation manual.

But thanks for the "corrections".....

 

[Imtired]

Arggg I had the thermostat set to 75 not 76 like I mentioned before and it is already at 77 and it is not even the hottest part of the day. This really bytes... Before the day is over this will be around 79 maybe even 80.

 

[wraujr]

What is current outdoor temp??

Track both indoor and outdoor temp and write them down every hour for today.

In a worst case design, your system should be able to keep house 20* below the outdoor temp. So if it was up to 100* the indoor might rise to 80* with system running full time.... In your case with 75* setpoint, a properly sized and installed unit should be able to maintain with 95* outdoor.

Of course, all this assumes an average sealed, insulated home, with fairly good windows, properly sealed ducts, etc.