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MaxBurn

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Sometimes I've seen system mode cool and it running HGR% which is fine when it is doing what I want. But now the space is satisfied temp wise and it won't run dehumidification and I feel like there's a bug in the unit or I've missed something. Lots more info attached but I'm looking at all the raw bacnet points in the unit and seeing what I thought the controller is writing. Needs another set of eyes as I can't find what I'm doing wrong.

The manual has decision trees for "arbitration" on things like occupancy, space temp setpoint, which sensor to use, and a title for mode where it never actually explains mode.

Lots of info attached.
View attachment RTU-10 Humidity control.pdf

Factory manual for this; https://www.trane.com/content/dam/T...ment/unitary/rooftop-systems/precedent-3-to-25-tons/BAS-SVP062B-EN_12032022.pdf
 
Discussion starter · #2 ·
I might have found it, this looks like a unit config option that must be done locally? I don't see a BACnet point for this, but I do see all these things in BACnet.

That's the dehum method I want, but if it is dehum method is on Dew Point current space Dew Point is 47°F and the setpoint is 40°F. I'm not writing those but I can see them.

 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
What is BV 10106 set to? Should be true but you might double check it.
Auto/active for that point, and it is showing that coming through on BV:11209 Dehumidification Enable Command - Active

Right this minute with a high heat load BV:11255 Dehumidification Status is showing Active and there's a HGR % comign through AV:11281
But oddly MSI:10101 shows Cool

Will check it again in the morning but I'll suspect it's back to doing nothing as I really haven't changed anything today.

I reviewed the user guide BAS-SVU054C-EN for symbio 700 but it doesn't show setting/screens for dehumidification mode selection.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
This is what I'm talking about, space temp satisfied all night, I'm requesting dehumidification mode 15 at priority 3, the equipment confirms it sees that request at the "active" point post "arbitration" but the "status" point shows the equipment is still in cool mode. 90% of what it is doing looks like dehumidification minus the really high fan speed.

The real problem is because it's so focused on cool mode and ignoring my dehumidification request is if I release some points and upset the operation of the unit I can't get it back into this state that looks like dehumidification WITHOUT also driving the setpoint down to get it into cool mode. I did that yesterday and it wouldn't start acting like this here until the afternoon AND I dropped cooling setpoint a half degree to get it into cool mode where I guess it shrugs and decides might as well do some dehumidification while I'm here??

Complicating things is customer want's the space this serves in the high 30% low 40% humidity wise, I had a frank discussion this piece of machinery might not be capable of that. At the very least the controller per the manual won't accept a dehumidification target below 40%. I just need to make sure it's getting the message to do what it can.




 
Try setting the room temps 70*cooling, 65*heating leave RH set point at 40. if unit goes into heat mode you will not dehumidify.

You need reheats to work, Whats controlling the reheats? It would be nice to set reheats to monitor room temp setpoint.

can you manually turn on your reheats?

I would talk to Trane and make sure the unit is properly set for dehumidification.

Trying to control RH with a DX RTU is not the best way. Depending on the outside air and RH it can be hard to dry down to below 40% without other means to control RH.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Do you have the symbio app on your phone? is a new install or existing unit?
I don't, a coworker put in the device ID numbers. Also the mechanical rep confirmed that the unit was changed over to %RH method from the factory documented default Dew Point. That's what we wanted so I think we are good there.

Try setting the room temps 70*cooling, 65*heating leave RH set point at 40. if unit goes into heat mode you will not dehumidify.
It's in South Carolina, not much chance on flipping over to heating at the moment. I did convince them to increase the cooling setpoint from 68° to 73°, some mention of the psycometric chart and their priority on humidity. Temperature is a second for this area, just need people to not complain. So now with running both compressors flat out for a couple days straight the room is actually nailing the 40~46% range. No exhaust fan or OAD for this area. There is no chance it will get down to their desired 35% range in summer IMO.

You need reheats to work, Whats controlling the reheats? It would be nice to set reheats to monitor room temp setpoint.
This unit has Hot Gas Reheat. So in the above pictured mode it does appear to be tracking the room temp with HGR just fine. Just takes some careful maneuvering to get it in this mode that looks a lot like dehumidification but the unit calls it "cool".

can you manually turn on your reheats?
With a Trane integration? Of course not.

I would talk to Trane and make sure the unit is properly set for dehumidification.
We are working through that and RTFM too.

Trying to control RH with a DX RTU is not the best way. Depending on the outside air and RH it can be hard to dry down to below 40% without other means to control RH.
Why would a controls vendor be consulted on mechanical design, what could they possibly know.

Image


For this unit I have the Application Guide, BACnet Integration Guide, Symbio 700 Application guide, Product Catalog, The IOM for Precedent, and the Symbio 700 User Guide. These all total up to the magic number of 420 pages.

Out of all that though there's probably only three pages talking about dehumidification. It all makes sense in the manual, nothing crazy. In the picture below the only thing I'm questioning is the supply fan being 100% and the mode saying cool. The manual does say ", the supply fan operates at the minimum speed defined for the compressor stage. Compressors are increasingly staged to 100% capacity." So I guess it's going to be 100% against common advice that a lower fan speed dehumidifies better. But the nagging question is maybe they would ramp down if the unit would actually get the message and flip over to dehumidification mode?

 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
100% cooling demand, both compressors,
will force the fan to 100%.
We aren't trying to cool, that's really the whole thing here. But yeah that's probably my lack of refrigeration background being a problem, it's probably required for DX pressures somewhere.

I would have gone hydronic for this system to meet what the customer REALLY wants in the space but they don't have a chiller & boiler plant at this facility.
 
You are on target that a slower fan, colder coil, and longer dwell times on the coil with increase your dehumidification... but also correct that the unit is gonna decide to do what he wants. Fun the fan runs to compressor demand but gives no notice as to what that actually looks like. Or notice that mode cooling + Hot gas reheat = de facto dehumidification.

The fans will need to maintain airflow to keep the superheated on the refrigerant circuit up. If there is no ref pressure transducer, and ref temp sensor, then the system cannot know system superheated and the fan speed is a Cover your butt number to prevent liquid slugging back under worst case conditions.
 
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