I don’t like change, but I heard of some people using it with success. I’m not sure I would use one but the first step is always the hardest. It’s like my teacher always said “Time is money, everybody wants it done faster!” He was referring to pex and regular shark bites in school though.

 

As mentioned by others, those 90 look like they dead head instead of a nice sweep. Don’t know why that is?

 

I will never trust an oring more than a braze. This is exactly the kind of thing that cheap diy hacks have been waiting for. Now they can hook up equipment without even owning a torch...that's going to definitely bring some interesting people out of the woodwork hahaha

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This. Any joint that seals with an o-ring that isn't put under proper compression in a proper gland is just begging to leak sooner or later. Just like the Parker Zoom-Lock BS, it's a bad idea in general. And an absolutely TERRIBLE idea in a non-accessible place, like inside of a wall for instance. Places where Parker says ZL fittings are fine. You won't think so when you have to tear a wall open to repair one. And woe be you if it's a buried line!

Actually, there are o-rings and o-ring fittings that I would trust, but again only in an acessible location. Face Seal O Ring fittings, which are common in hydraulics, are an example. IMO they should be used in place of flare fittings, with the proper type o-ring of course (neoprene, epichlorohydrin, or Teflon). Now, having said that, I mostly do refrigeration and I have rarely had an issue with a flare fitting when using FlareTite seals. But rarely doesnt mean never. Had a mini-split with an indoor fitting that flat could not be made leak free. I ended up cutting the flares off and using Swagelok brass compression fittings on that one. These arent the cheap compression fittings for water lines that you get at the hardware store. These things are rated for serious pressure, way more than 410a runs and far more than the copper is rated for, and are designed to seal gases that you do NOT want to leak. Think silane and phosphene in semiconductor fabs. If a guy were to connect ACR copper with Swageloks, I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, at $30+ a pop for the larger sizes, I think the customer may not like it.

Overall, the reason we braze is because it's a (or, should be) permanent leak-free joint that should be as good as a continuous section of copper line. Assuming it doesn't leak when made, it shouldn't develop a leak later on. That should be the case for aluminum, except the cheap-ass manufacturers use a no-clean flux that plugs actual leaks during testing, but eventually erodes away and exposes the leak after a time in operation. Thats a fault of the process and choice of flux. If they used corrosive fluxes and washed them afterwards like automotive manufacturers do, they would have only a tiny fraction of the leak issues. And they coils would look nicer as well. No nasty flux residue over every joint! Just ask an automotive AC tech how many evaporators they replace in a year on relatively new vehicles and compare it to a stationary AC tech. The difference is stark. Which is a good thing considering what a bastard it must be to change an evaporator in most vehicles!

 

I spent too many years learning how to weld the right way, lol. Besides it will not pass fire code inspections in my areas..

 

Please elaborate on how it won't pass fire code.

 

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/ammonia_refrigeration/emergency/index.html

Let’s say it an ammonia system...

 

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/ammonia_refrigeration/emergency/index.html

Let’s say it an ammonia system...

Yes indeed, ammonia is a very dangerous, flammable, explosive and toxic. That's why we have professionals. Get out the Argon , purge the lines and braze. Someday some moron is going to use a quicky , no skill device on oxygen service. (Side note: you have to certified to run medical gas like oxygen with a certain amount of classroom hours and produce a coupon under supervision which is sent to an approved lab for inspection/ testing.)

 

Nearly all of the historically used refrigerants were flammable, toxic, or both. Some were also highly reactive, resulting in accidents (e. g., leak, explosion) due to equipment failure, poor maintenance, or human error. The task of finding a nonflammable refrigerant with good stability was given to Thomas Midgley in 1926.

https://www.epa.gov/snap/refrigerant-safety

 

What is the melting point of those connectors? Is there any continuity across the connector when copper is connected to insure proper grounding in the event of a power surge?

 

I'm not saying I'm for or against the fittings. I asked for opinions. You gave yours and it's welcomed.

However, you state it as though it's code and law and post articles which don't prove that. If you have an actual code reference, please give it.

It just talked with my best friend who for over 20 years was on the NC Mechanical board and he says that he's unaware of any code section prohibiting them. If there were one, then it would prevent Zoomlock fittings, schrader valves, rubber flange gaskets or any other such seal.

 

Then you will not mind sending me the info I requested..I will always cover my arse 100 ways to Sunday...

With the people I know, documentation is everything...and that includes Manufacturer design Engineers ..and Chief Mechanical Inspectors Along with Fire Marshall Chiefs..

You show me Documented paperwork it’s approved by the manufacturers and Fire Marshall Chiefs And I’ll have nothing More to say...

And the last question is...How come no HVAC manufacturers are using or endorsing them ??

 

What info? I'm not selling or repping the fittings. I just asked for opinions about them and quite honestly, I'm not impressed with them.

You are the one that made the statement that they wouldn't pass inspection which means there has to be a section in the code which prohibits them. Where is it?

 

As I told you, The Fire Marshall Chiefs will not allow them...I had no documentation for their questions....I found out the hard way when I used shark bite on copper ( pvc not allowed through a fire penetration) condensate runs in a 5 story Multi use building.....shark bite has not been fire rated as per mfg documentation..it cannot be used inside a finished wall as per building codes, like an electrical splice box...

Without documentation it doesn’t fly...I also learned regular duct (Thinner) cannot be used with a fire damper in the middle through a wall(The documentation was provided by the Damper mfg...), mineral wool has to be used instead of regular brown insulation to fill gaps before fire putty seals the openings..( again manufacturers documentation prevails)

 

Carrier used a combination compression/ORing type in1970/80’s
If copper was completely Round or ACR hard copper it worked Ok , probably about 1/2 of them failed , around my area , I had to fix a lot, pain in the butt
I do not trust shark bites at all and especially in a concealed area where it will drip 💧 for months without being detected

 

Carrier used a combination compression/ORing type in1970/80’s
If copper was completely Round or ACR hard copper it worked Ok , probably about 1/2 of them failed , around my area , I had to fix a lot, pain in the butt
I do not trust shark bites at all and especially in a concealed area where it will drip �� for months without being detected

I remember it well. It was called the "Compatible" fitting.

 

To make it simple, I would say you both need documentation. The fitting should have some sort of listing to legitimate. If there is no documentation the Fire guy wins. Still the fire guy needs a code to not allow a fitting if said fitting has documentation.

 

They have it.
Lines will be brazed.
Can’t even use Stay Brite8!

 

I've told this story before. It's only somewhat related, but I like the story so I'll tell it again...

At a fancy golf course clubhouse that we used to take care of they had this little old Latino housekeeping lady. She could barely speak English, but she was a nice lady and everybody loved her. One night she leaned a bunch of cardboard up against a row of water heaters and left for the night.

In the middle of the night the cardboard caught fire, and the room started to burn. The fire got so hot that it melted the solder out of a copper fittings above one of the water heaters (If anyone has tried to solder a fitting that has water in it, you can imagine how hot that room must have needed to get for this to happen). The fitting let loose and the spraying water put out the fire.

This happened in the basement of the building. They had some pretty bad fire damage in that mechanical room, and had to replace a bunch of drywall and carpet due to the water damage, but the building was saved.

Anyways, ever since that incident I can see why copper gas, fuel oil, compressed air, and refrigerant lines need to be brazed and not soldered.

With that being said, I know that copper Propress fittings used to be available and approved for gas piping. There are also Megapress fittings for steel gas piping. I never heard that those were against fire code, and I've never heard that Zoomlock fittings were banned either.

I also haven't seen anything official saying weather these push-on refrigerant fittings are ok to use or not.

I think in many cases it's really up to the code officials in your area weather it is allowed or not. Sometimes they let some things slide, and sometimes they make up their own rules.

 

reminds me of fittings that were often used on steel gas lines. basically just a sleeve and some rubber gaskets with nuts. non-union gas company people used them a lot.

 

tin solder for plumbing will melt around 200°C, that's not hot at all. Any fire will be much hotter than that.

 

I hope noone approves them, just another step toward DIY a/c of tomorrow.

 

Well, I stopped in my local Aireco branch a few days ago and here's the documentation and approvals on them.

Again, I'm just a tech like everyone else here and all that I asked for was opinions. However, when someone states an opinion as an established fact, and then can't back it up with factual data or documentation, his opinion has no validity.

As I've said many times: "opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple of them and they usually stink".

 

I’m against shark bite fittings for anything other than to get ya out of a bind with a water leak or something in the middle of the night. But that do have to meet certain standards and to go into houses or whatever have a UL listing and have to be somewhat safe. Things in our field are changing rapidly so I’m sure it’s not long and things like that are going to be more popular cuz let’s face it we’re prolly not gonna use copper forever. I’m sure they can make refrigerant lines out of plastic that’s plenty strong but it’s jist not cost effective yet. Could you imagine all the plumbers in a up roar when plastic plumbing lines first got popular and I’m sure they said it’ll never work or won’t last or whatever. Same is going to go for our trade as well it’s jist a matter of time. I hope that time is a long ways off myself. So my opinion on shark bite for refrigerant lines thumbs down for me

 

They were right the first time with that grey plastic crap from the 80's that got banned...lol

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What about the manual that states “Brazed Joints”

 

What manual is that?

 

That stuff was a disaster. That’s how the first generation on shark bites for refrigeration will prolly be. Then who who knows it may be the bees knees. Time will tell. We all just gotta remember to keep an open and not to be like an old plow mule with blinders on all the time.

 

The only thing I could find code wise, was 1107.5.4 imc.

States any refrigerant in a2, a3, b2, b3 classes must be brazed if using copper tubing.

R22 and 410 are both a1 so that code does not apply to residential at this time.

R32, which I think is what daikin is switch too, along with whatever gas carrier is moving to, IS A2, so they wouldn't be allowed.


I don't like mechanical fittings.
Not them as a whole, but they rely to much on the ability of a person, who already has such a low ability they don't want to braze.
So, I'm sure the pipe has to be perfectly cut square and round.
When in the heck has anyone found a perfect round, square piece of soft copper doing a replacement, residentially?

It's like flaring. Nothing wrong with flares, but it seems like alot of people can't make one correctly.

EDIT:
that box says approved for R32. R32 is listed imc as a2.....wtf?

 

My local United Refrigeration is selling theses fittings,I know that they are expensive.i have been brazing for 40 years.No need to start using these fitting now.However ,I'm going to grab one at United just to read the literature on them.See if there are do and don's with them.

 

The 2018 International Mechanical Code 1104-5-3 states:

1107.5.3 Copper tube. Copper tube used for refrigerant piping erected on the premises shall be seamless copper tube of Type ACR (hard or annealed) complying with ASTM B280 or ASTM B819. Annealed temper copper tube shall not be used in sizes larger than a 2-inch (51 mm)nominal size. Mechanical joints other than press-connect joints listed for refrigerant piping shall not be used on annealed temper copper tube in sizes larger than 7/8-inch(22.2 mm) OD size.

https://www.ci.independence.mo.us/userdocs/ComDev/2018 INTL MECH CODE.pdf

 

The 2018 International Mechanical Code 1104-5-3 states:



https://www.ci.independence.mo.us/userdocs/ComDev/2018 INTL MECH CODE.pdf

So if I read that correctly.
Provided we are under 7/8 tube, its legal, and the pipe joint section is specifically related to brazing/soldering?

The way I interpreted it, was that mechanical joints were fine in class A1 and class b1, but classes a2 a3 b2 b3 needed to be brazed.

The previous mentioned code only bans the usage of mechanical fittings above 7/8, but doesn't specifically allow it under 7/8, with the following section further mandating brazing on flammable refrigerants.

 

The way I read 1107.5.3, mechanical joints (such as flare nuts) for soft copper up to 7/8"OD are allowed. The exception to this being pressed fittings listed for refrigeration. I read this as any size press fitting
listed for refrigerant would be acceptable.

Then 1107.5.4 states all joints for A2,A3,B2 and B3 must be brazed, which I interpret to mean no mechanical joints (neither pressed nor flare) are allowed for those refrigerant classes.

 

Which would exclude these fittings from usage of r32 or carriers new refrigerant, correct, even though the box Bob posted shows approved for R32?

 

I appreciate the latest answers that have cited specific code references.

Question: could the discrepancy about the fitting being approved for R32 and how that's listed in the IMC be because the approval is more up to date than the edition of the IMC being cited?

 

My state uses 2018, which is what I references.
Couldn't find the most recent online.
I saw something about Iowa wanting a specific exemption added in their code allowing the usage, but couldn't find out what happened.

The fitting being approved and allow are 2 different things, I believe.

Kind of like, will it work? Oh yeah.
Can I use it? Oh, no.

 

In doing some research, I just discovered that R32 is a class 2L, not a class 2 refrigerant. The difference being that 2L is "Low flammability" while 2 is "Flammible".

The attached article from which this was taken goes on to explain that it's almost impossible for an R32 leak to ignite in such a manner as to cause serious harm.

https://www.airah.org.au/Content_Files/TechnicalPublications/R32-Common-Questions-Sept-2014.pdf

 

In doing some research, I just discovered that R32 is a class 2L, not a class 2 refrigerant. The difference being that 2L is "Low flammability" while 2 is "Flammible".

View attachment 817108

The attached article from which this was taken goes on to explain that it's almost impossible for an R32 leak to ignite in such a manner as to cause serious harm.

https://www.airah.org.au/Content_Files/TechnicalPublications/R32-Common-Questions-Sept-2014.pdf

According to the imc chart, it's an A2.
It has a notation that it is a 2l, and is a subclass of a class 2, but still falls under A2.