Sorry, I had to remove your proposal to comply with site rules about not posting prices. You can type in model #s and what he's proposing but no prices. Or white them out and repost with what he provided. Looks like a thorough proposal, I don't recall seeing a media air cleaner on it. I really think every job ought to have one of them.

Back to prices, only way to know if it's a good bid is ask another dealer (who comes recommended by friends or family) to quote similar equipment.

I would not touch a Nest stat. Plenty of good WiFi stats more reliable for lots less.

 

I agree with B.L. to have a 4-5" box filter installed. Also, have the humidifier installed (you'll need it) at the same time to save money. Make sure to get a humidifier that comes with a outdoor sensor to automatically monitor the humidity levels in the home. Humidity will give you more comfort.

 

Sorry about that, prices removed:

Proposal:

Upgrades:

 

I would look for another brand.
Sorry to all you Luxaire fans.

 

Is your home a ranch or a 2 story? Forget the 2-stage A/C, for sure.

 

Properly sized 2 stage A/Cs work real well in the Philly area. Helps to keep the indoor RH in check.

 

I agree, if properly sized. But a 3 ton unit for 1,500 sq. ft.?

 

More then he needs. The 16SEER condenser AL6B030 at 65 outdoor and ID 75DB 62WB ill have a total capacity of 29,400 at 800 CFM. The 3 ton AL8B at the same air ambients at 750 CFM will have a total of 26,800. It can match the cooling load better then a 2.5 ton.

 

Wow thanks for the responses! It is a 2 story home.

 

+2 on the 4-5" media filter

 

Okay i slightly understand what beenthere and George2 are debating… but not really. I think they are saying go with an AC unit not in the bid, i think this because they all seem to be 2.5 tons (according to the Luxaire brochures sent with the bid). What I'm currently thinking:

- No UV lamp.
- No humidifier. Since these can be installed easily later on, we’d ride out this winter and see how the humidity feels and measures.
- Upgrading to the 2210 air purifier.
- Upgrading from the base TCJD 13 SEER TCJF 14.5 SEER (both 2.5 ton). This will get us to 16 SEER and we would qualify for PECO rebates ($300), not that huge of a win but…
- Upgrade to the T8000 Honeywell stat

 

A 1,500 sq. ft. 2-story home, with proper attic insulation, attic ventilation and the right reduction of sun exposure should be able to cool with a 2 ton. To get the 16 SEER you need the variable-speed blower. Maybe a X13 motor will get you there as well.

 

Ive got a 1600sqft house im cooling with 2tons. Design temp 75f indoors/97f outdoors.

 

At 1,366 sq. ft., the 2 ton would be my recommendation. Having the A/C oversized will never cool the 2nd floor.


There are other ways to make the home cool (more efficient) if the 2 ton didn't work on that 100+ degree day. Venting the attic will big the biggest improvement.

 

For anyone still interested here is the second bid we got. He agreed that a 2.5 ton unit is the best size for the type of home and ductwork.

AC: ASX16
Furnace: AMEH96

 

It would be nice if you could read his writing. I love those preform proposals. Nothing said about labor, permit or taxes. I guess you have to trust them. I do not like the 16"x20" filter one bit! That tells me a lot about their knowledge of airflow.

 

Looks a lot like "500sqft per ton"

 

Yeah its hard to read here is was I got:

- AC model # ASX160304
- Indoor coil model # CAP?363643
- Thermostatic expansion valve model # TXV030
- Thermostat model # TH6220
- Furnace model # AMEH96603BX

We did talk about the permits, thats all on a pricing page that i would have to white out anyhow. Nothing about taxes or labor though, i have an email to him about those now.

I do not like the 16"x20" filter one bit! That tells me a lot about their knowledge of airflow.

I assume the 16 x 20 filter comment is about not getting the 4" media air cleaner? I did ask about the 4" though. It is an option, but he didn't recommend it because essentially the duct work isn't the tightest and it would reclaim dirt/dust/etc.

FWIW we aren't people that are overly concerned with purifying air / water / our lives so it doesn't interest me to much in that regard, however it does interest me in the fact that it could keep the machinery cleaner and longer-lasting. Am i wrong to think that? Would it preform so other greater function?

He seemed to know what he was talking about. He was previously a mechanical engineer on HVAC systems and is a PECO energy auditor. Of course to me anyone could appear to know what they are talking about and I have no idea if those are good credentials or not. The company was recommend via a friend and they have good online reviews so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Looks a lot like "500sqft per ton"

I'm not sure what that's in reference to. I'm assuming translating his writing?

 

"500sqft per ton is the most common "rule of thumb" for sizing HVAC systems. It's the way many contractors have been doing it for years and some aren't willing to do an Honest man J for fear of undersizing.

 

Regarding the filter size they are offering; it's 20% smaller than any furnace manufacture recommends. The contractor is using a less expensive 'drop' that has the smaller filter.

There is a proper sized 'drop' available, but guess what, it costs (a little) more. If you decide to go with a more efficient 1" pleated filter, then the 16"x20" will really be restrictive.

 

Can I just hire one of you, Lancaster is semi close?

So many more questions, I think after this I'll probably be a qualified HVAC contractor.



- What would a "proper sized drop" be that I should ask for?
- The first bid mentioned a "new enlarged drop", the second bid did not. Is the first more correct? I'm thinking they should both mention a size?

- Would the second bid just be reusing the existing drop or is that replaced no matter what and they are just using a smaller size than you would like to see?
- Does the drop size and filter size go hand-in-hand e.g. If I go with the Aprilaire air cleaner (which im 70% leaning towards, as it's not terribly expensive) will that get me to the proper drop size.
- Bottom line I'm thinking is: either A) at the least ask for "proper size" drop of at least whatever size, or B) preferred solution, get the Aprilaire media air cleaner.

Unfortunately, the AME's 2 stages of heat, can't be controlled by a thermostat. The AMVC would be a better choice.

I had questions about this but this post cleared things up for me.


I feel like i could get a solid system from both contractors and we're just getting down to the nitty gritty stuff? There really needs to be an adult summer camp where I can learn all this stuff.

 

Unfortunately, the AME's 2 stages of heat, can't be controlled by a thermostat.


The AMVC would be a better choice.

 

blg002,

Welcome to H-Talk!

We are a great resource, please read and ask questions before taking the big leap.

The biggest struggle consumers have to overcome is in understanding that what you purchase in the way of equipment and how well it runs are two completely different things. As a case in point, if your ducts leak like a sieve, why doesn't he purpose sealing the accessible portion of the ducts? That's a cheap efficiency upgrade right there.

Has anyone done performance testing on you duct system that will be connected to your brand new furnace and AC? Is it overly restrictive? What can/should be corrected during the install? Why guess when you can know? A through contractor is much more than a salesman regardless of any engineering degree, you must test to have data. Data informs decisions. Has anybody tested anything?

I agree on the Amana, a AMVC is a better choice. Decent furnace, not so sure about the contractor.

On the air filter- Media filters are great when installed properly, and just like anything else, they are a headache when done poorly. I see most media filter cabinets and EAC's (electronic air cleaners) installed in a way that restricts airflow. The devil is in the details.

best of luck.

 

I think I answered some of my own questions regarding the filter. Sometimes you just need to talk to the duck. The AMEH recommends a filter size of 580 in2. 16 * 20 = 320 in2, so I would need at least a 20 x 29 filter. Interestingly, to me, is that the AMVC recommends smaller filter sizes at least the disposable ones.

What I still don't fully grasp is if the filter size will dictate the drop size, or vice-versa. It stands to reason that it would that it would but i dont like to assume. I'm guessing that you typically size the drop based on the minimum sized filter the manufacturer recommends, correct?

 

A 20x30 filter, doesn't need the drop to be 20x30. It should transition to that size just before the filter though.

 

If you're not get a high efficiency 'box' filter, then make sure they use a new 16"x25" 'drop' and filter rack. If a 20"x25" 'drop' is available, that would be better. But a 16"x25" is fine for a 2.5 ton.

We can buy 'drops' with a 16"x20" filter rack (built in) or a 16"x25" rack (built in).

 

A furnace blower moves X amount of air. The filter rack is basically the size of the opening on a (small) furnace. Sidebar: I'm only talking about your set-up, not to get too confusing. Larger furnaces require a different filtering arrangement.

The manufactured 'drop' is a term we use. These are store bought and include: a boot with a filter rack, a drop (piece of duct) and a starter collar.

The drop (duct only) is normally 10"x20" or25" depending on the boot size.

 

A furnace blower moves X amount of air. The filter rack is basically the size of the opening on a (small) furnace. Sidebar: I'm only talking about your set-up, not to get too confusing. Larger furnaces require a different filtering arrangement.

The manufactured 'drop' is a term we use. These are store bought and include: a boot with a filter rack, a drop (piece of duct) and a starter collar.



The drop (duct only) is normally 10"x20" or25" depending on the boot size.

but as you indicate in your eariler post, bigger return drops are often better.

 

Third and final bid. This was the first guy to walk through the house and make notes about room sizes and such (no actual measuring). He also turned the fan on and felt the supply and returns and made some suggestions about some register locations. One supply is behind a bed, he said we could move the register to the top of the wall, and one return is in a closest, he said we could put a grate on the outside of the closet.

Here's the upgraded option

The base option

The moving the furnace 12" is about setting it up at the end of the trunk. Currently it has one supply(?) to the front of the house and the rest inline or towards the back of the house. He said this would allow for better flow.

 

Bid2 when asked about the drop/filter size said and media filter:

Size would be 20x10 drop with a 20x16x1 filter rack. I would suggest using a 2210 as it’s larger surface area will reduce the air pressure drop and help make the time between filter changes longer. The higher MERV number (11 vs 13) means nothing in an older home and again I would be concerned with the air flow. The 2210 has a P.D. of .11” while the 2310 is rated at .16” This pressure drop will increase during usage.

I've asked: I had some concerns that that drop/filter size is smaller than the manufacturer recommendation (580 in2). Would it be possible to a 16”x25” or 20"x25" drop and filter rack?

We'll see.

 

Dang, Scott, your avatar makes me want to move to Colorado

 

It's really something on a good day. I have a story or two about that kind of thing.... Let's just say there's nothing like waking up on the side of a mountain with nothing but more mountains in every direction.