Very clean. Nice work. I would add a few more supports.

 

You can’t be an engineer. Engineers never give us that much space.


Looks Good

 

lol - no architects never give us enough space!

Thanks for the kind words..

 

Looks like the 1900 box needs a cover, the chimney connection is stuffed with, paper?

One circuit for all? No means of HOA for individual circuits, single point of failure.

Looks clean overall, but an engineer should have picked up on the single point of failure, just sayin

 

Yes, box lacks cover, flue connection needs a more permanent draft stopper...

Welll.... I see your point... I went all or nothing with the wiring, one circuit like you noticed. The EPO takes everything down. Don't think it will ever be a problem... How would you have circuited it? Boiler separate from the circs? It's a question of how far you go, ya know? The piping is mapped out carefully for easy parts swapping - lots of stop valves, unions, etc..

Don't be shy, I love (constructive) critism.. :yes:

 

Whats the distance from the last turn in the supply to the air seperator. I thought you needed 20 inches?

I do like the wall mounted approach. It makes everything extremely clean.

 

I just looked it up and Taco recommends 18" min. We're short of that - but it was working quite well on the start up so... The big thing is being on the suction side of the pump, IMO...

 

i didn't see a low water cut off and i see you are from ny. where is poestenkill? i am not nit picking, i probably just can't see it. very nice job ( for an engineer) lol. usually if the customer tells me he's an engineer i kringe, but i would not have any problem working on your stuff. those knight's are nice boilers, i have quite a few out there myself.

 

Good boiler work!

Do you have flo checks in the boiler and DHW pumps? And the zone circs for that matter?

 

Sure does not look like it :eek2:

 

The knights don't actually have an internal LWCO (so I've been told).

They have a flow detector. So if the temp rise across the system goes above max, it shuts off (this i've seen). So if the injection pump fails, and the temp rise across the boilers hits something like 50 (or whatever) it'll shut down, even if theres water sitting in the boiler.
Also if no water flows though, it cuts. (I think).

Although in cincinnati, thats a legal means of LWCO.

 

Yes, thank you, that is my understanding of the Knights internals as well. There's also the obligatory high limit control. The question is does that satisfy the LWCO safty requirement here, code wise..

 

I have not seen a knights boiler. job looks good. why is there white and gray pvc pipe for the flue.

 

I forget the exact length, but the exhaust needs to be CPVC (higher temp) for like the first 7 equivilant feet. Since 10' of 2" CPVC is about $40 and 10' of 2" PVC is $3.50, we used PVC for the rest of the run.

 

Is that CPVC rule only for WALL HUNG knights?

On the floor model, all you need is the 1' peice of grey pipe they give you with the boiler.

 

Probably so. I think all the floor models use 3" vents and FAI, even the smaller ones, while the smaller wall hung models can use 2". So it stands to reason they have different "rules" for one or the other. We exceeded what we needed to install with CPVC, just by virtue of the fact that it comes in 10' lenghths, so obviously you use it all...

 

Is that extrol tank hanging off of half inch copper?

Is there a vacume breaker on the water heater?

 

Is that extrol tank hanging off of half inch copper??

Yes, and there is a threaded rod and split ring coming down from the floor joist a few inches away from the last 90, can be seen in pic two.

Is there a vacume breaker on the water heater?

No. :cheers:

 

Why a mod con boiler ? What is the radiation type for the other 2 zones, low mass baseboard? I see you said the kitchen will be radiant, i.e. low temp. Why didn't you complete the primary loop, at the mixing valve ? Or use a different primary secondary system. 3/4 pipe @ 4GPM can only supply 40KBTU. What btu does your system call for when 2 or more zones call? Did you do a heat loss calc/manual-J ? Burnham has a general HL calc on their website. What is your system design temp and heat curve temp inputs? What size is the squire ? If the boiler and IDW don't have the same head loss and flow rate you can't pipe the IDW off the boiler secondary because they require 2 different pumps it would have to come off the primary. If your equip matches then what you have is fine. What size is the knight? For all the nice equipment, I would have used a spirovent for air elimination, worth every penny. Is that a PRV above the xtrol? Since its obvious your workmanship is outstanding, it would be no problem for you to add a temp well here or there to monitor your Dt on the kitchen and boiler. Or just monitor the menu.

 

Why a mod con boiler ? What is the radiation type for the other 2 zones, low mass baseboard? I see you said the kitchen will be radiant, i.e. low temp.

I love mod cons for EVERY terminal unit type. Yes, the two main house zones are low mass fin tube. Using the outdoor reset means they get very low water temp for most of the heating season, works superbly. The (future) kitchen will be in-floor radiant, always low temp, hence the mixing valve so the water stays cooler in the radiant than in the system loop when the OA reset ramps up the system loop supply temp. Make sense?

Why didn't you complete the primary loop, at the mixing valve ?

I don't think it is piped like you think, each zone pump is in parallel with the other zone pumps. I would actually consider the primary loop the loop made around the boiler or IDW. The zone pumps pull as much flow as they need off the primary circuit when they are called to do so.

Or use a different primary secondary system. 3/4 pipe @ 4GPM can only supply 40KBTU. What btu does your system call for when 2 or more zones call?

All the primary and manifold piping is 1". Total heat loss for the whole house is probably 45-50 MBH. Your mising a big part of the equation. Flow (gpm) is meaningless without the system delta t when determining heat output. If 1 gpm leaves at 180 and comes back at 160 it has lost half the energy as the same 1 gpm leaving at 180 and coming back at 140. This is off topic for this specific set-up, which does operate at a smallish delta t, but I thought I'd share to keep things clear.

Did you do a heat loss calc/manual-J ? Burnham has a general HL calc on their website.

I sized it for the domestic water needs. See, this is one of the beauties of mod cons, since the boiler burner can turn down to 20%, and since the thermal efficiency of the system is maximized when the water temp is low and the burner is at partial fire, the design heat load can (and should) be easily exceeded by the installed mod/con boiler. I'm not saying heat load calcs are useless, quite the contrary, I'm an engineer, I do them all the time (using Carrier's hourly analysis program), I'm saying the actual design heat loss isn't as critical in an application like this where you know the boiler you're putting in has it covered by a factor of 1.5 or more. Like I said, I was more worried about keeping up with the domestic hot water load, these are my friends and I know they both take looong showers.

What is your system design temp and heat curve temp inputs?

From memory: At -20 Ambient, system supply is 185, at 55 ambient, system supply is 120, gradient between. Design temp around here is about -5. I like setting them up like this (assigning a very low low ambient temp with a relatively high supply temp) because it is absolutely free insurance. If there ever really is a crazy cold snap (it DOES happen), you unleash the boilers full potential. Why not do this? In reality, it seldom, if ever will go above about 160. Also, an IDWH call ramps the supply up to 175 to get a good recovery rate and be partially condensing.

What size is the squire ? If the boiler and IDW don't have the same head loss and flow rate you can't pipe the IDW off the boiler secondary because they require 2 different pumps it would have to come off the primary. If your equip matches then what you have is fine.

The squire is a 40 gallon model. Not sure what you're asking, but again don't think you are understanding the piping. The system and the IDWH are indeed using two different pumps, they are parallel to each other and never run at the same time. Take another look at the piping. :cheers:

What size is the knight?

80 MBH input.

For all the nice equipment, I would have used a spirovent for air elimination, worth every penny.

I actually fully agree. The one I'm doing now is using a B&G EAS Junior, very similar to the spirovent.

Is that a PRV above the xtrol?

Yes, the boiler loop is 15 psi, and the domestic water pressure cut in and out are 30 & 50 psi respectfully. Pretty normal set-up.

Since its obvious your workmanship is outstanding, it would be no problem for you to add a temp well here or there to monitor your Dt on the kitchen and boiler. Or just monitor the menu.

Thank you for the kind words. Again, I agree, the one I'm doing now uses wells and thermometers on the zone supplies. And yes, you can scroll through the menu to get the dt at the boiler at least.

 

In this case the IDW will suffer greatly, as the IDW wants 8-14 gpm and the Knight can't handle that kind of flow without blowing head loss well over 25'. By pulling of the primary loop the IDW pump won't have to fight the low flow and high head loss of the knight. Thats why I pointed out the matching requirements of the tank and the knight, its right in the I&O manual. Sometimes you do have to decipher the contradicting pump and DT data between the 2. As of now if the IDW pump is sized properly, what is the knight gonna do with 8-14 gpm flowing thru. It says the IDW minimum flow is 14 GPM but the output chart only goes up to 8 GPM.

Won't the ODR comp for cold snaps? Rather than you inputting free insurance.

As far as the delta T are you trying to design a 40 deg DT? Won't that leave cold spots in the zone. I usually don't see fin tube work as well as rads with low water temps, I mean since they were designed for 2 different operating temp ranges.

If you were trying to design the boiler around the IDW then why not put in what Manufacturer recommends ( minimum input rating of 115K)

So the boiler will almost never condensate as the majority of its time will be spent above 120 degrees. The most efficiency gains come from proper sizing by design. I think one companies claims about higher efficiency at lower fire rates are just that, but then again maybe they have a variable burn chamber and variable speed fan with O2 sensor....:bump:

Check out those Taco delta T pumps , they have some great applications and can compensate for calculation or installation flaws

 

In this case the IDW will suffer greatly, as the IDW wants 8-14 gpm and the Knight can't handle that kind of flow without blowing head loss well over 25'. By pulling of the primary loop the IDW pump won't have to fight the low flow and high head loss of the knight. Thats why I pointed out the matching requirements of the tank and the knight, its right in the I&O manual. Sometimes you do have to decipher the contradicting pump and DT data between the 2. As of now if the IDW pump is sized properly, what is the knight gonna do with 8-14 gpm flowing thru. It says the IDW minimum flow is 14 GPM but the output chart only goes up to 8 GPM.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, I see what you were getting to. Yes, I fully agree that this set-up (which is very typical) forces the IDW pump to overcome the head of both the boiler and the water heater. I know this now and I knew it when I designed the system. If you use the boiler control board (line outs to the IDW and boiler pump come right from the boiler) and use the domestic hot water priority feature, the boiler shuts off the boiler pump and lights up the IDW pump. You could wire it and pipe it so that the boiler pump stays on during IDWH calls, and the IDWH is simply a zone on the system, that way the boiler pump "fights the head" of the boiler and the IDWH pump "fights the head" of the water heater only. I'm with you that the principle is sound.. BUT... let's also consider that the heat transfer efficiency inside the water heater has more to do with delta t between the boiler water and the domestic water than it does boiler water flow. If you reduce the flow, the capacity doesn't fall off the shelf as you suggest. The system works great, and the boiler ramps up to full fire at the beginning of a IDW call and then only backs down slightly - telling me the btus being made are being removed from the boiler and delivered to the domestic water. It is hard to argue with that really. :grin2:

Won't the ODR comp for cold snaps? Rather than you inputting free insurance.

Not to be rude, but what's your point? I like to set up OAT resets like this so that the system almost always condenses, but if it gets really cold the supply water temp keeps climbing. It takes no extra time to do, you have to input numbers either way, right? :cheers: There are settings in the Knight that will ramp the supply temp up after a programmable amount of continous zone call time. That is an alternate to what I do, but I prefer using the reset schedule because I am of the opinion there should be no time limit on how long a zone call lasts, as long as it is maintaining temp in the house. In this instance I am able to follow up with the "customer" to verify that the heating system is always keeping up. It does, and there are very long run times, just what I intended.

As far as the delta T are you trying to design a 40 deg DT? Won't that leave cold spots in the zone. I usually don't see fin tube work as well as rads with low water temps, I mean since they were designed for 2 different operating temp ranges.

No, not at all, I was more responding to your statement that "4 gpm can only carry 40 MBH", which is flat out not true, it depends on the delta t AND the flow. During low temp operation with the fin tube, the delta t realized is probably pretty small - maybe 5 degrees. In order to achieve a 40 deg dt with fin tube you would need very hot water and very low flow I'm sure you agree. And yes, that would make for big differences between rooms on a common in-seies piping arrangement - not good like you said.

If you were trying to design the boiler around the IDW then why not put in what Manufacturer recommends ( minimum input rating of 115K)

And a recommended maximum of?

So the boiler will almost never condensate as the majority of its time will be spent above 120 degrees. The most efficiency gains come from proper sizing by design. I think one companies claims about higher efficiency at lower fire rates are just that, but then again maybe they have a variable burn chamber and variable speed fan with O2 sensor....:bump:

Condensation occurs when the return water temp is less than about 140 F for any manufacturer. Aerco does have a drive on the air pump, not sure about an O2 sensor, maybe so..

Check out those Taco delta T pumps , they have some great applications and can compensate for calculation or installation flaws

I love the delta t concept. Minimal gains with fractional horsepower pumps, but I love the theory and apply it in commercial design, especially on geo well field pumping. I have used the Grunfos Alpha (pressure curves) in a resi instal and really like that pump as well, especially with the ECM motor technology, which has a much higher electrical efficiency at lower speeds than a PSC motor.

 

Knight

:cheers:Nice work!

 

:cheers:Nice work!

Thanks!