[rsmith46]

Like Wolfdog said the NEC only Say's that the disconnect be within sight and readily accessible. It cannot be installed on removable panels meant to service the unit.

 

[rsmith46]

Ask the inspector to show you in the code book that the disconnect has to have a 3' clearance. Its not there.
Don't let him try to use Article 110.26 clearances for working space.
It only has to be accessible and with-in sight. Article 440.14

 

[rsmith46]

we had the same crap where you couldn't have anything within three ft of the breaker panel's front.

Breaker panels are covered by Article 110.26. which covers equipment that is likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
A/C disconnects are not covered by article 110.26 because you can de-energize it to service it.

 

[rsmith46]

Disconnecting Means
440.14 LocationDisconnecting means shall be located within sight from and readily accessible from the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.
The disconnecting means shall be permitted to be installed on or with-in the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.
The disconnecting means shall not be located on panels that are designed to allow access to the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.

 

[rsmith46]

They don't stick you with 42"? disco is hot and you are touching the grounded condenser?

What if you had some trunking tapped to six disconnects. Would it not need the working clearance?

You can attach the disconnect right on the grounded condenser, as almost every RTU is done this way. The argument could be made from the wording of 440.14 that the disconnect needs to be within reach (readily accessible from) of the condenser. If I'm getting shocked by the condenser maybe I want to pull the disconnect to save my sorry a$$.

Disconnecting Means
440.14 Location Disconnecting means shall be located within sight from and readily accessible from the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.
The disconnecting means shall be permitted to be installed on or with-in the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.
The disconnecting means shall not be located on panels that are designed to allow access to the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment.

 

[rsmith46]

Clearances around Service Equipment.

440.14 That's for the Location of Disconnect only.

Disconnecting means: is a device or group of devices, by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.

Table 110.26(A)(1) applies only to the Service Equipment. Not to the Disconnect.

Condenser is classified as Air Conditioning Equipment. So Table 110.26(A)(1) will applied to it.

110.26(A)(2) Width of Working Space. The width of the working space in front of the electric equipment shall be the width of the equipment or (30 in.), whichever is greater.

So working space clear distances are 3 feet to the front of equipment and 30 inches horizantal.
.

We're talking about the location of the disconnect, so 440.14 is the applicable Article.

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.
110.26 (A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26.

The A/C condenser is an electrical appliance, not electrical equipment.

 

[rsmith46]

Ran into this myself, years ago...
Rsmith is correct - the inspector is trying to say the disconnect is a distribution panel, and that is not correct, since a disconnect does not require 'protection'...

Richard

Yes, you can de-energize the disconnect to service it. Article 110.26 Working Clearance covers electrical distribution equipment that has to be serviced while energized.
Thats why I said don't let the Inspector use 110.26 to say the disconnect needs 3' clearance.

If Wolfdog comes back maybe you all will believe him.

 

[rsmith46]

Moving the disconnect left on the lower unit would pass here,BUT that upper unit wouldn`t pass. Where`s the 36" working clearence in fron of service panel on condenser UNLESS that white thingeee around the unit slips off.
It would still fail here because of no working area around condenser.

You don't need working area around the condenser unless its 16' off the ground.

 

[rsmith46]

That is not totally accurate, if it is a fused disconnect 110 absolutly applies.

Trying to argue with the inspector over working space in front of a panel is a real good way to get your entire job taken apart and every last detai scrutinized to the maximum.

36" will never get you into trouble so if it is possible, maintain it, it is the professional thing to do anyway.

FYI here, unless you were the electrical contractor you would be in deep doo anyway. They LOVE to pop 1k fines on folks for performing electrical without a permit or license. Electrician sets the disconnect and feeds it, we install the sealtite and low voltage.

110 doesn't apply because the disconnect can be de-energized to be serviced, unless your a moron or to lazy to turn off the breaker. NEC can't be expected to protect stupid lazy people.

 

[rsmith46]

I don't see how a disconnect gets out of the requirements.
QUOTE]

A disconnect in itself does not get out of the working clearance requirements of Article 110.26
A 200amp disconnect for a panel box is likely to be energized when serviced, a disconnect for a condenser is not. Thats the difference, a wall switch is also a disconnecting means for any number of things including a furnace or condenser. But no one would suggest a switch is governed by 110.26.

I'm not right untill Carnack agree's with me, or Wolfdog comes back.

 

[rsmith46]

If it has FUSES in it, 110 applies and 440 is COMPLETELY out the window slick because it is a PANEL / sub panel.

THAT NEVER CHANGES!

.

How do you figure its a panel/sub panel??

 

[rsmith46]

When it has fuses in it DUH!

What is a panel? look it up in your code book!

Gesh, sounds to me like some folks like to argue more than I do!

Like Wolfdog said, based on what and give us the code reference.

 

[rsmith46]

If you are going to talk like an authority, quote some references.

I believe the point can successfully be argued the other way. I'm interested to see if you really have anything.

I can go ask Fat Eddy! I'm sure he can argue it with you.

 

[rsmith46]

Not you Smith.
You posted while I was typing.

If I wanted to argue with FE, I know where to find him.

I knew you meant Idontgetit, I was joking about FE.

 

[rsmith46]

it's been fun watching you guys argue about this but all I know is a electrician had to move two disconnects that were mounted approx. 60" from the floor in a parapit but just behind the condensing units. the condensing units were approx. 18"-24" away from the wall the disconnects were mounted on. the inspectors arguement was that the disconnects didn't have proper access. he even demonstrated by stepping between the wall and the unit and leaning back to allow the door to swing open and him to access the disconnect ( although I would never ever expect to see an electrician really do this maneuver ). I kinda thought he was joking when I overheard him talking about it but he made them move the disconnects.
.

The inspector was using the readily accessible rule in 440.14 to make them move it. Not the 3' rule in 110.26, or he would have demonstrated with a tape measure.

 

[rsmith46]

You guys are the authorities on 440, or atleast you are implying that it is the requirements for HVAC equipment and it most certianly and absolutly is not and even clearly refrences that it is NOT.

440.3 These provisions are in addition to, or amendatory of, the provisions of Article 430 and other article in this code, which apply except as modified in this article.

No where in 440 does it release you from the acessability in 110, however it does impose the more stringent application of line of sight. Why you guys INSIST on saying that hacking a disconnect in that is NOT meeting clearances that are defined, but is in sight defies the logic of professionalism.

As far as the fused disconnect goes, if you use a fused disconnect or one of the breaker type disconnects, it is a panel. If it has a buss in it, it is a panel, look it up, start with the definations, scower the index, call me a liar, i don't care.

One thing is clear, if YOU are mounting the disconnects, you are getting to do more than we are allowed to do here, that is a permitted electricians job. If you were to do it here and got caught, the very first time the fines are implimented.

No matter how anyone feels or what they think about this, one thing is for sure, if I did it as I indicate in your area I would have no compliance problems, but if you did it your way in this area, you most certianly would. in case you are wondering, the reason i know what the fines are is experience, i KNOW from getting busted on it.

Its no wonder you have had problems with inspectors, you need to reference the specific code section and verbiage to make your argument instead of just making generalizations just to argue.
Don't you think inspectors debate this stuff between themselves? They don't mind debating it with you, but you need to lay your cards on the table.

 

[rsmith46]

Yes, I did catch that. He also earlier said he has had problems when he tried arguing with inspectors that then picked on him. That was the reason for my advice to him on using specific code reference's.

 

[rsmith46]

NO where in 440 does it modify or amend 110.

You are the ones who need to cite specifics as to where it is amended or modified.

I was the service manager at the company when it happened to us, and yes I did talk with the inspector about what the guy had done, and yes, the guy and the company got fined.

I have never placed a disconnect without proper clearance, and yes, when you do, you are HACKING, there is just no reason to do it that way. The closest thing to justification is james stating that the eletricians rough it in. The big difference here is they set it to and an HVAC contractor is not allowed to do that.

You've been told your wrong by at least 3 Master Electrician's here and you continue to want to argue without giving any specific code reference's.

440.14 deals directly with the location of disconnecting means of air conditioning and refrigeration equipment. it says it shall be within sight and readily accessible. Thats it, period.

You can't even try to apply 110.26 (A) because it specifically says { likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized }
A disconnect has to have branch circuit overload protection { breaker }that is required to be de-energized to service the disconnect.

 

[rsmith46]

110 26, and 110 26(A) are about working space and has the strong word "All". You guys got me flipping through the work book from a code seminar I took 18 months ago now, and what jumps up out of the pages is stuff like switchboards, panels, & MCCs need the "dedicated space" like overhead clearance up to 6' or the ceiling height for example which is 110.26(F). So it seems that the dedicated space is limited to switchgear but everything needs a working space.

If James's photo is legal, it saves me a lot of grief, especially when I got rows of condensers in condos.

James photo is legal, (the first one anyway).

Besides the fact that an A/C disconnect is likely to not be serviced while energized. It also is designed so it doesn't meet conditions 1, 2, or 3 of table 110.26(A)(1) anyway as it has no exposed live parts.

 

[rsmith46]

The handbook commentary on 110.26(A), in addition to saying it applies to controls on HVAC equipment, makes a big deal about the word examinination.

Sometimes a bad disconnect is the cause of no cooling, you check to make sure you have power to it. The newer the inspector the more religiously he follows all the commentary and 'pictures' in the handbook. So, maybe in about 2 months time NFPA will get back to me on this.

Sometimes the wall switch for the furnace or the receptacle for a cord and plug connected A/C or refrigeration unit is the cause of no cooling or heating problem. If you include a simple disconnect like James's as HVAC controls you also have to include the wall switch and receptacle as covered under 110.26

You can use a simple 240v toggle switch in a weather proof box as the disconnecting means for a condensing unit.

Read 110.26(F)(2).
If that disconnect falls under 110.26 it needs to be protected from accidental contact by unauthorized personnel. Hmm.