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confused8534

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
So a few years back my wife and I moved into this great apartment complex. I saw orher posts from tenants in rhis forum. So i was hoping to find some advice. Id happily pay anyone that would be willing to consult via text given my complex wont allow anyone but their ac techs touch the equipment. My uncle used to be an ac guy and when I was a teenager I used to help him. So I have tons of respect for what you guys do.

About a year ago the ac stopped cooling like it should. So they messed with it a little and got us through august 2019. Eventually april 2020 rolls around and it starts to get hot. So i submit a hest ticket. The new boss of rhe maintenance crew comes in and flips a switch to turn the fan speed up. Of course i had already worked out what a comfortable fan speed was with the previous boss. But this guy likes to throw his weight around and show everybody how “smart” he is. The humidity immeditaely goes up to upper 50s from around upper 40s to lower 50s. I asked him if he coukd switch the fan speed back and check the condenser since i told him the air just didnt seem cold enough. He said no its supposed to be on highh. I said high speed blows all sorts of dust around and pulls more dust into the bouse etc. Unfortunately at the time i didnt know about the delta t or i would have taken some readings. So eventually the realize the condenser fan motor was bad. So they put in a motor that was didferent and tried to rig it on my condensing unit. Of course the humidity stayed high. So after a month and a half of calls about the ac not being cold enough, they eventually got a fan motor for my unit. The reason this is an issue is because my unit is different than most of the other units in my apt. So they didnt want to have to buy the part they needed. But eventually they did and put the Old correct top on the unit. It still didnt cool right. The ac guy comes back and finally after almost four months turns the fan speed back down. Immediately the humidity went down back to the lower 50s or mid 50s. . Oh yeah all during this time the ac guy said that there was a different kind of refrigerant in the unit than what it was originally designed for.

The big problem now was that in order to get to around 69 degrees it woukd take the ac literally all day and all night to get down to 69 degrees. The humidity would come down too to about 49 or 49% simply because the ac was on all night. Aso i woukd literally have to turn the tstat down to low 60s to get the air to be even close to cold. In fact when i turn it down to the lower 60s i get a delta t of around 11 degrees. If i leave it on 70 the delta t is in the single digits and my sinuses and blood pressure go crazy. I know i have no allergies because i have been tested. But the low delta t seems to aggravate my blood pressure and makes me dizzy. There have been times where the ac tech was down at the condenser unit (we live on the 2nd floor) and i woukd feel great. But then he would be done and it would go back tk feeling bad. Btw during this time the system woukd go from working good to working bad. Then i woukd out in a ticket..same cycle. Usually it was over a two week period.

Eventually they changed the condenser unit outside on a friday. That night and the whole weekend the air was immaculate. In fact i kelt smelling this smell that was identical to when i clean the shower curtain with bleach. Also rhe ac cycled on and off and stated on maybe a couple of hours during rhe hittest time of rhe day. This was during a weekend where it was 105 degrees here in texas. So i thought great everything is fine. Then on monday the condensing line froze.

So they started coming and trying to fix it. The tech said it wa slow in refrigerant. But i checked and the condensing unit came charged with enough refrigerant for a 25 foot run for the condensing line. I even sprayed really really bubbly water in the copper joint where they soldered the line to the new unit since the tech said it was low on refrigernt. No bubbles. The “head of maintenance” came in and looked at it and put his head to the unit and said it was getting enough air. He didnt test anytjing. I mentioned the low delta t and he interrupted me. When i asked him to let me finish my question he said i was being “hostile.”

As it stands now, they have said they are only responsible for twenty degrees less than the outside temperature. So if it is 100 degrres outside, i shouldnt expect to be able to get my ac down to 70. But eberybody i know whho has ac can ge lt down to 70 easiky even on 100 degree days. My in laws system which is in an old house that leaks cycles normally and easily maintains a temp of 70 with a delta t of around 17 degrres. Their return temp is 70 and supply temp is 53. When it finally does get down to 70 (which takes allll day) the supply is 63 and the return is 70. They are trying to say my expectations are unrealistic. But it worked much better for two years. Whenever i bring ho the low delta t they change the subject. Also the condensing line at the air handler is about 63 degrees.

They are also saying my unit freezes uo because the fan speed is low. But it has never frozen when it is on cooling. The unit freezes when it reaches a set point and turns off. The other day it froze immediately when i switched from the heat to the ac. But they swear it freezes because of low fan speed. It has never froze up because of the low fan speed.

Can other issues cause the coul to freeze besides low refrigerant? Are there orher quesstions i should be asking? They seem mad that i am asking questions. But im a bit upset at this point since it has taken more than a year and we are no better off than we were a year ago. I also pay way too much rent to not have ny ac working. I literally paid $330 last month for electricity and used 700 more kilowatt hours last month than the previous month last year. They have tried to blame It on everything from my little doggy door or the flue in the chimney open. But we closed the flue back in may and the doggy door has been there much linger than we have been having problems. My brother in laws house which was built in the 70s almost teoce the size and has aluminum windows and a much bugger doggy door has better humidity and a much better delta t. The highest his bill gets is $220. Our apartment is on the second floor.

Oh yes and this is weird the tstat is always lower sometimes 8 or 9 degrees lower than the temp in the room on thermometers i have....except when the set point on the tstat gets set to 75 and the temp comes up. They have changed the tstat once since may and twoce since i have lived here. I thought we woukd get some relief when it got cold. But the day before yesterday it got down to 55 and the heater had the humidity pretty high.
 
Changed only the outdoor unit and not a matched indoor section also? How do you explain the system cooling ok for a little while when the initially just changed the outdoor unit?

“Can other issues cause the coul to freeze besides low refrigerant? “

Did they check the inlet side of your coil and clean it while a new outdoor unit was being installed. Is the Air Handler original to the complex?

What’s the outdoor model number and brand. What’s the indoor model number and brand. When they changed the outdoor unit, did the metering device need to be replaced at the blower section.
 
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Discussion starter · #3 ·
Changed only the outdoor unit and not a matched indoor section also? How do you explain the system cooling ok for a little while when the initially just changed the outdoor unit?

What’s the outdoor model number and brand. What’s the indoor model number and brand. When they changed the outdoor unit, did the metering device need to be replaced at the blower section.

Yes they changed the metering device. The outdoor unit is a goodman gsx140361kd. It says the factory charge of r410 at the factory was 81 oz. the indoor model is so okd the information is unreadable on the sticker. So yeah i think it is the original air handler.

I dint know if they checked the inlet side of the coil or not. I know they eventually came and did a flush of the system and then put the refrigerant back in.
 
Yes they changed the metering device. The outdoor unit is a goodman gsx140361kd. It says the factory charge of r410 at the factory was 81 oz. the indoor model is so okd the information is unreadable on the sticker. So yeah i think it is the original air handler.

I dint know if they checked the inlet side of the coil or not. I know they eventually came and did a flush of the system and then put the refrigerant back in.
That refrigerant number you listed ( 81 ounces ) is for a matched indoor coil and included ( which you don’t have ) and 15’ of correctly sized lineset. You mentioned that number was good for 25’, which is incorrect.

What type of metering did they use, a TXV or a piston? How did they determine refrigerant charge was set, by the factory change to length of lineset alone? or by superheat/subcooling? Who told you the charge is correct to 25’ of lineset?


“So they started coming and trying to fix it. The tech said it wa slow in refrigerant. But i checked and the condensing unit came charged with enough refrigerant for a 25 foot run for the condensing line“

Where did you read that? It’s 15’ show me where it says 25’ it use to be 25’ but that was a long time ago. Goodman goes by the 15’ rule like just about everyone else.


“ I dint know if they checked the inlet side of the coil or not. I know they eventually came and did a flush of the system and then put the refrigerant back in“

Why would they put the refrigerant back in, the virgin refrigerant is in the outdoor unit, and you added virgin refrigerant as needed to get your system charged as best as possible with a Frankenstein ( mismatched ) system, which yours is. Your outdoor unit is rated at 14 SEER, your indoor could be rated at 10 SEER as an example. As it was told to me at a distributor years ago A 10 SEER 3 ton Indoor coil is a rebadged 14 SEER 2.5 ton coil.

Did someone register your outdoor unit, hopefully they did that for you or you can register the system yourself. Just need the serial number.

How old is the complex?
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
That refrigerant number you listed ( 81 ounces ) is for a matched indoor coil and included ( which you donÂ’t have ) and 15Â’ of correctly sized lineset. You mentioned that number was good for 25Â’, which is incorrect.

What type of metering did they use, a TXV or a piston? How did they determine refrigerant charge was set, by the factory change to length of lineset alone? or by superheat/subcooling? Who told you the charge is correct to 25Â’ of lineset?



“So they started coming and trying to fix it. The tech said it wa slow in refrigerant. But i checked and the condensing unit came charged with enough refrigerant for a 25 foot run for the condensing line“

Where did you read that? ItÂ’s 15Â’ show me where it says 25Â’ it use to be 25Â’ but that was a long time ago. Goodman goes by the 15Â’ rule like just about everyone else.



Why would they put the refrigerant back in, the virgin refrigerant is in the outdoor unit, and you added virgin refrigerant as needed to get your system charged as best as possible with a Frankenstein ( mismatched ) system, which yours is. Your outdoor unit is rated at 14 SEER, your indoor could be rated at 10 SEER as an example. As it was told to me at a distributor years ago A 10 SEER 3 ton Indoor coil is a rebadged 14 SEER 2.5 ton coil.

Did someone register your outdoor unit, hopefully they did that for you or you can register the system yourself. Just need the serial number.

How old is the complex?
“ I dint know if they checked the inlet side of the coil or not. I know they eventually came and did a flush of the system and then put the refrigerant back in“

“Another hvac tech told me that they are usually charged with enough refrigerant to handle a 25’ copper line on a facebook forum. It was a forum where only techs can comment. The metering device looked like a little come shaped nozzle”
 
“ I dint know if they checked the inlet side of the coil or not. I know they eventually came and did a flush of the system and then put the refrigerant back in“

“Another hvac tech told me that they are usually charged with enough refrigerant to handle a 25’ copper line on a facebook forum. It was a forum where only techs can comment. The metering device looked like a little come shaped nozzle”
Piston metering device sounds like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pIikqCS7ao

Hard to find a exact one as it’s a mismatched system.

Sounds like they used the one that came with the outdoor unit which is probably a good basic choose? Provided there is a piston installed in the 1st place. Thinking if you have a different brand of indoor coil a Goodman piston may not fit inside the coil, or they drilled the hole to get the orifice side close. ( if existing piston orifice was smaller ) at face value looks like your stuck using this company only, instead of getting another set of eyes on your unit from another Company?
 
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Being on the 2nd floor how many feet of lineset do you have from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit. Did they just install a new unit, replace metering device, leak test, evacuate then open service valves and they said your all set with the refrigerant charge?

Did they install a new field installed drier also, as one comes with one inside the outdoor unit from the factory.
 
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Discussion starter · #8 ·
Being on the 2nd floor how many feet of lineset do you have from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit. Did they just install a new unit, replace metering device, leak test, evacuate then open service valves and they said your all set with the refrigerant charge?

Did they install a new field installed drier also, as one comes with one inside the outdoor unit from the factory.
Yes and at first they did the factory refrigerant charge And put a new metering device. After it froze the monday after they did that. Im not for sure if they did a leak test or not. But they said there were no leaks...and i kind of believe them on that. Refrigerant is expensive. I dont know if the opened the service valves. Are those in the air handler? If so, then it wouldn't surprise me if they didnt...but wouldnt it not run of those were closed? I dont know about a field installed dryer. I dont think so...if it Is in the air handler.

Also that is exactly the kind of nozzle they installed. But they didnt do any drilling etc.

Now this next part is going to sound wonky. But i know this is what he said. When i heard they were going to have to recharge the unit after purging it and cleaning it when it froze up, the guy siad they were going to put back a mixture of r132 and 34. I know he didnt say r410. And i know he didnt say r-22. I know the difference because i was a diesel mechanic in the marines back in the 90s and ehile we didnt have any ac to deal with i know the difference bewteen the refrigerants.
 
Yes and at first they did the factory refrigerant charge And put a new metering device. After it froze the monday after they did that. Im not for sure if they did a leak test or not. But they said there were no leaks...and i kind of believe them on that. Refrigerant is expensive. I dont know if the opened the service valves. Are those in the air handler? If so, then it wouldn't surprise me if they didnt...but wouldnt it not run of those were closed? I dont know about a field installed dryer. I dont think so...if it Is in the air handler.

Also that is exactly the kind of nozzle they installed. But they didnt do any drilling etc.

Now this next part is going to sound wonky. But i know this is what he said. When i heard they were going to have to recharge the unit after purging it and cleaning it when it froze up, the guy siad they were going to put back a mixture of r132 and 34. I know he didnt say r410. And i know he didnt say r-22. I know the difference because i was a diesel mechanic in the marines back in the 90s and ehile we didnt have any ac to deal with i know the difference bewteen the refrigerants.
“ I dont know if the opened the service valves. Are those in the air handler?”

They ( service valves ) are located by the outdoor unit, they are in the closed position from the factory, has the 81 ounces of R410A stored in the outdoor unit, so yes they opened both valves, after brazing in the lineset, leak testing, evacuation then they opened the valves to release the refrigerant into the system, the question is did they just leave it like that ( after opening the valves ) and said the system is charged correctly?

You never answered the question about how long the totally lineset length is. Even if they charged by weight method, there is a predetermined amount of refrigerant your suppose to add for every foot of liquid line over what the manufacturers say. That length was given to you already. Don't know what your talking about those refrigerant, the Goodman GSX14 is a R410A unit, nothing else suppose to be used.

Thinking you should get another company to look at your system, to get another opinion. At the very least call them back and have them clean the indoor coil thoroughly. Find out how they determined the existing charge is correct.

Picture of your service valves

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...043520455000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAkQjhxqFwoTCKCB8t_w5OsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

You have several strikes against you, I hope you realize that, for starters a mismatched system, questionable piston metering device size, ( they come in many different orifice sizes ) possibly dirty indoor coil. Probably incorrect field adjustment charge. You can cut down on one issue by installing a properly sized TXV, and remove the piston.
 
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“ I dont know if the opened the service valves. Are those in the air handler?”

They ( service valves ) are located by the outdoor unit, they are in the closed position from the factory, has the 81 ounces of R410A stored in the outdoor unit, so yes they opened both valves, after brazing in the lineset, leak testing, evacuation then they opened the valves to release the refrigerant into the system, the question is did they just leave it like that ( after opening the valves ) and said the system is charged correctly?

You never answered the question about how long the totally lineset length is. Even if they charged by weight method, there is a predetermined amount of refrigerant your suppose to add for every foot of liquid line over what the manufacturers say. That length was given to you already. Don't know what your talking about those refrigerant, the Goodman GSX14 is a R410A unit, nothing else suppose to be used.

Thinking you should get another company to look at your system, to get another opinion. At the very least call them back and have them clean the indoor coil thoroughly. Find out how they determined the existing charge is correct.

Picture of your service valves

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...043520455000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAkQjhxqFwoTCKCB8t_w5OsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

You have several strikes against you, I hope you realize that, for starters a mismatched system, questionable piston metering device size, ( they come in many different orifice sizes ) possibly dirty indoor coil. Probably incorrect field adjustment charge. You can cut down on one issue by installing a properly sized TXV, and remove the piston.
As an option, why not just breakdown and get a new matching indoor unit, instead of dealing with your Frankenstein system?

How old is the complex will tell you how old your indoor section is..
 
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As an option, why not just breakdown and get a new matching indoor unit, instead of dealing with your Frankenstein system?

How old is the complex will tell you how old your indoor section is..
Cause the apartment complex doesn't want to spend the money to replace a working air handler.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
As an option, why not just breakdown and get a new matching indoor unit, instead of dealing with your Frankenstein system?

How old is the complex will tell you how old your indoor section is..
Btw i think the complex was built in the 90s.

Funny now. Even after defrosting all night, when i turn it on it just makes the sound like refrigerant Is flowing in but doesnt come on. The condensing line going into the air handler just gets cold like its going to get icy again...and the air handler doesnt turn on.

Btw they swear up and down the fan speed has to be on high. But it is crazy uncomfortable for us when all that dust is blowing around...and we had it on low fan speed for the forst two years we were here. They say it is the fan speed making it freeze. But it never freezes when it is blowing. It always frewzes after it has reached the set point and turns off then is turned back on again after the temp comes up. The other day it was cool. So we ran the heater for much of morning. But when it got warm enough to turn on the ac i turned it on. It froze instantly before the fan came on.
 
Put your fan from auto setting to ON at the thermostat if blower comes on then run your A/C as needed. Your fan will blow 24/7 on the ON position. Then call for service again and tell them the blower is not coming on when in A/C mode. Got pictures of the Air Handler?
 
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Is there any other thing we can do. The fan setting on on usually messes with our sinuses too.
You don’t have to leave the fan at that setting all the time, just while your running the system to see if it comes on and stays running when A/C is calling, until they come out after you call them for service.
 
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Discussion starter · #17 ·
They have already had at least one per week from april to august. They are just at the point now where they said they are only guaranteeing the ac will cool the outside temp down 20 degrees from the outside temp.

It looks like The fan cant be turned on independent of the ac. At least thats the way it looks. There is no fan icon when you just turn the fan on. But there is when i turn the ac on with the fan on auto. They probably wired it incorrectly.

They have already lied and said i was being belligerent when all i did was ask the construction manager why he isnt measuring the temp in the vents. He interrupted me before i even asked that question. I asked him to let me finish my question. Then He walked out saying i was being belligerent. I admit...im a little discontent about the whole thing. But This has been going on since last august. They have been wanting to turn the fan speed on high since the very beginning which they did from april to early august. All it did was make it more humid in the house, blow massive amounts of dust everywhere and make the house sound like a hurricane. They mistakenly swear that all i need to do is leave th the tsat on 75 to get ti cold. But we have tried that and its hot...and the air blowing from the vents isnt cold. But it seems their tstat isnt adjusted right except it when it is around the temps they want. When my tstat says 67 All my thermometers say 72 or so in the apt. When it says 75 on the tstat it is usually right on the thermometers in the house. I have taken my hygrometer and my thermometers to my inlaws and their house was down to 70 actual degrees with 43% humidity and cycling on a 105 degree day. I feel great in their house, but their tstat is at 75 degrees. But it isnt 75. It is 70 degrees which is what i like my actual temp to be set at. My wife mistakenly thinks that our 75 is the same actual temp as her parents. Ive tried to explain it to her...but she is just stubborn.

Funny thing is even on 85 degree days i have to turn the tstat down to 64 to get it yo blow anything close to a proper delta t....it gets around 10 degrees difference between supply and return. Then it stays on forever just to get it down to that temperature. Blowing more air over a hot evaporator coil doesnt seem like it will do anything better. It is like they have just enough refrigerant in it to cool it down to 75 and thats it.


Funny thing is im not the only tenant who has complaints. I have talked to at least 10-15 other tenants who have similar issues. Im just the only one willing to keep pushing the issue.
 
Looks like it, maybe if they get repeated service calls on this unit they may?..
No, not until upper management gets involved. But they don't always see the number of service calls, so they don't realize how much time is on a call like this.
 
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