[icy78]

Come to think of it, it's always been a local ground that's the issue . Poor ground on the pilot assembly or loose ignition control ground connection. It's just that I've often seen,'verify ground back to the panel'.

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[icy78]

But the union thing really is out of line, but chops is right,,, sounds like and electrical issue, even if it is running like poo poo in high fire that doesn't explain pilot issues, I would really go through all connections, you would be surprised how many wheels I've pulled out and cleaned due vibration, guys just keep adjusting the air and all the while th wheel is plugged,,, I could of swore there's a bulletin on those burners that explain how to drill out the orfices on the diffuser, it's been a few years though since I've worked on one, anyone has some material on this ?

I had an intermittent on a Powerburner earlier this winter. That was a dirty wheel now that you mention it.

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[timebuilder]

Come to think of it, it's always been a local ground that's the issue . Poor ground on the pilot assembly or loose ignition control ground connection. It's just that I've often seen,'verify ground back to the panel'.

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The "local ground" is the bonding of the burners back to the controller inside the unit, completing the circuit for flame rectification. It's not the same as a panel ground, which is the ECG.

 

[icy78]

The "local ground" is the bonding of the burners back to the controller inside the unit, completing the circuit for flame rectification. It's not the same as a panel ground, which is the ECG.

Yepper! That's why I called it local.
I also have run a ground back to the panel a couple times in what I see now was probably a fruitless attempt to solve an intermittent flame failure. Makes sense to me. Thanks for your post about that TB.

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[bcharlesm30]

First the ground is back to the panel, so I'm re grounding the panel secondary this boilers been working this way for 20 years


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[timebuilder]

What do you mean by "re-grouning the panel secondary?"

 

[bcharlesm30]

That means I'm installing a ground rid dedicated just for that panel


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[timebuilder]

That would not be code compliant.

 

[ace57745]

Timebuilder...You are so wrong! It is clearly stated on page 33 of the service manual. It is a pilot trouble shooting guide. This what is stated:

TROUBLE: Motor runs, gas pilot. establishes, pilot flame does not prove.
PROBABLE CAUSE: Improper ground circuit.
ACTION: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.

This is why you must a a proper ground circuit:
1. The secondary side of the control transformer is 120 volts AC.
2. The neutral side of the 120 volt control voltage lands to ground in the control cabinet. This is how the factory wired the burner.
3. Time builder again: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.
4. Do you understand this?
5. Improper control voltage will certainly effect Honeywell programmer! Do you understand?
6. Improper control voltage will certainly effect the flame signal. Again Timebuilder: Do you understand?
7. It has been communicated to me that this Burner is installed in a outdated industrial facility. Furthermore the outdated electrical panels do not have a ground bar!
8. It has been communicated to me that the ground wire lands to a ground clamp outside of the electrical panel.
9. This does not follow the manufactures recommendations!
10. I think it is a NEC code violation? Timebuilder i'm asking you a question?
11. Timebuilder: I can tell from you post that you are educated. However I would not trust you to work on this burner!
12. As a service manager. I would feel like that your safety would be a issue! Again time builder to you understand this!
13. Next if I was the service manager monitoring this service call I would have a fixed this issue myself and provided him with hands on training on how to fix it.
14. To fix intermittent burner problems you must verify that all manufacture's recommendation are followed closely!
15. Finally: I have worked on the Gordon Piatt model R burner many times! Not just for natural gas but fuel oil as well.
16. I am going to prepare a detailed post. That's states step by step on how I would solve this issue. Proving that I Know more about this burner than any other person who has posted so far.

Vlad: blind leading the blind? When Union city workers can't figure something out. They always call me to actually fix problem! Feel free to ask any questions you might have. But only about boilers, chillers and Schneider electric building control system. That's it Vlad. Post your email and I will reply with my cell number.

 

[valdelocc]

ace, dude you got some serious issues!! I wouldn't let anywhere close to my bicycle let alone a power burner!

 

[ace57745]

Vlad: Yes, I have issues with people like you! He asked for advise with a burner! What help or advise did you offer? None. Slamming him for changing part's is not good advise! And does not help his confidence. Why don't you stop slamming people. Stop being a negative nancy! And give him some good advice about a model R10 Gordon Piatt burner! I can send to you the service manual you might want to read so you don't sound silly.

 

[bcharlesm30]

No it is compliant not necessary read your code book on sub panels and primary panels


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[valdelocc]

Vlad: Yes, I have issues with people like you! He asked for advise with a burner! What help or advise did you offer? None. Slamming him for changing part's is not good advise! And does not help his confidence. Why don't you stop slamming people. Stop being a negative nancy! And give him some good advice about a model R10 Gordon Piatt burner! I can send to you the service manual you might want to read so you don't sound silly.

The service manual gives clueless people a false sense of knowledge and you epitomize it, I dont have a problem helping a pro but thats not the case here.

 

[Red Man]

Timebuilder...You are so wrong! It is clearly stated on page 33 of the service manual. It is a pilot trouble shooting guide. This what is stated:

TROUBLE: Motor runs, gas pilot. establishes, pilot flame does not prove.
PROBABLE CAUSE: Improper ground circuit.
ACTION: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.

This is why you must a a proper ground circuit:
1. The secondary side of the control transformer is 120 volts AC.
2. The neutral side of the 120 volt control voltage lands to ground in the control cabinet. This is how the factory wired the burner.
3. Time builder again: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.
4. Do you understand this?
5. Improper control voltage will certainly effect Honeywell programmer! Do you understand?
6. Improper control voltage will certainly effect the flame signal. Again Timebuilder: Do you understand?
7. It has been communicated to me that this Burner is installed in a outdated industrial facility. Furthermore the outdated electrical panels do not have a ground bar!
8. It has been communicated to me that the ground wire lands to a ground clamp outside of the electrical panel.
9. This does not follow the manufactures recommendations!
10. I think it is a NEC code violation? Timebuilder i'm asking you a question?
11. Timebuilder: I can tell from you post that you are educated. However I would not trust you to work on this burner!
12. As a service manager. I would feel like that your safety would be a issue! Again time builder to you understand this!
13. Next if I was the service manager monitoring this service call I would have a fixed this issue myself and provided him with hands on training on how to fix it.
14. To fix intermittent burner problems you must verify that all manufacture's recommendation are followed closely!
15. Finally: I have worked on the Gordon Piatt model R burner many times! Not just for natural gas but fuel oil as well.
16. I am going to prepare a detailed post. That's states step by step on how I would solve this issue. Proving that I Know more about this burner than any other person who has posted so far.

Vlad: blind leading the blind? When Union city workers can't figure something out. They always call me to actually fix problem! Feel free to ask any questions you might have. But only about boilers, chillers and Schneider electric building control system. That's it Vlad. Post your email and I will reply with my cell number.

The hostility and tone of your post is uncalled for. Timebuilder is giving good advice and I'm sure he would be open to a discussion about how in certain situations a properly grounded panel is required for proper equipment operation. What exactly are you a service manager of? You sound as though you work for the manufacturer.

 

[timebuilder]

Timebuilder...You are so wrong! It is clearly stated on page 33 of the service manual. It is a pilot trouble shooting guide. This what is stated:

TROUBLE: Motor runs, gas pilot. establishes, pilot flame does not prove.
PROBABLE CAUSE: Improper ground circuit.
ACTION: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.

This is why you must a a proper ground circuit:
1. The secondary side of the control transformer is 120 volts AC.
2. The neutral side of the 120 volt control voltage lands to ground in the control cabinet. This is how the factory wired the burner.
3. Time builder again: Check for voltage on neutral wire to panel ground. Voltage must not be more than .5 volts.
4. Do you understand this?
5. Improper control voltage will certainly effect Honeywell programmer! Do you understand?
6. Improper control voltage will certainly effect the flame signal. Again Timebuilder: Do you understand?
7. It has been communicated to me that this Burner is installed in a outdated industrial facility. Furthermore the outdated electrical panels do not have a ground bar!
8. It has been communicated to me that the ground wire lands to a ground clamp outside of the electrical panel.
9. This does not follow the manufactures recommendations!
10. I think it is a NEC code violation? Timebuilder i'm asking you a question?
11. Timebuilder: I can tell from you post that you are educated. However I would not trust you to work on this burner!
12. As a service manager. I would feel like that your safety would be a issue! Again time builder to you understand this!
13. Next if I was the service manager monitoring this service call I would have a fixed this issue myself and provided him with hands on training on how to fix it.
14. To fix intermittent burner problems you must verify that all manufacture's recommendation are followed closely!
15. Finally: I have worked on the Gordon Piatt model R burner many times! Not just for natural gas but fuel oil as well.
16. I am going to prepare a detailed post. That's states step by step on how I would solve this issue. Proving that I Know more about this burner than any other person who has posted so far.

Vlad: blind leading the blind? When Union city workers can't figure something out. They always call me to actually fix problem! Feel free to ask any questions you might have. But only about boilers, chillers and Schneider electric building control system. That's it Vlad. Post your email and I will reply with my cell number.

Number two is an illegal connection today. The neutral is only on the primary side of any transformer found in a unit. On the secondary side, it is transformer common. the transformer secondary can be bonded to the cabinet. However, the only function of the ECG is to provide a low impedance path to the panel in order to aid in the clearing of any faults when there is a short to ground.

Equipment manufactured before 1980 used to tie the ECG to neutral at the appliance. That is now illegal.

What is most likely happening is that you (or the person who wrote instructions you may be seeing) is not conversant with the meaning of the word, "ground." This is not surprising among untrained persons.

Most likely, the "ground" the instructions indicate is actually bonding of the internal appliance, using the transformer secondary common as a reference. That transformer secondary is NOT a "ground." It is a cabinet bond that is at ground potential due to the equipment grounding conductor, which in a few years is going to have its name changed to equipment bonding conductor. These changes take time, as the electrical industry really hates to admit something is not accurate. But, it will happen.

So, no matter how much attitude you can muster young man, it is you who are incorrect.

 

[ace57745]

Vlad... wow.. you sound silly!
The manual is so important!
It provides the manufacture's recommendations and troubleshooting guides.
I wouldn't even try solving intermittent issues with out the manual!
How could you dial in the combustion without the manufacture recommendations for O2 & CO2 levels at high and low fire?
How could you dial in the pilot without the manufacture recommendations for the minimum static pressure on the pilot air intake tube?
How would you know what you minimum manifold gas pressure's can be at high and low fire?
As a service manger knowing that you wouldn't use the manual. I would not allow you to work on a steam boiler. I would be concerned for your safety as well as the entire facility!

 

[BALloyd]

Anyone that thinks manuals do not contain incorrect information or mistakes is just plain naive.

I see mistakes in manuals all the time.

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[ace57745]

No... you are not telling me that I am wrong. You are telling Gordon Piatt that page 33 of there service manual is wrong! There are two types of transformers floating and grounded. In this case Gordon Piatt used 208v to 120v grounded transformer. Again timeshare: I can tell you are very educated. But I don't think you have the ability to solve these intermittent burner issues.

 

[71CHOPS]

the thing I don't understand is how this burner has functioned perfectly fine for 20 years, and now all of a sudden a ground rod is going to solve a new problem.

If it does actually fix it, it hasn't solved it..........only masked the true cause........

 

[ace57745]

No timebuilder did not give good advice. He implied that improper equipment grounding for a Gordon Piatt model R burner would not effect flame rectification. This is completely false! And is stated several times in the manual. page 33 also page 50 talks about the importance of proper control voltage.