[NewUser75]

Air Handler - 4TEE3F31B
Heat Pump - XL16i 2 ton - 4TWX6024
Thermostat - 803 w/ Outdoor Thermometer
Heat Strips - 1410
Clean Effects - FD215ALA

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC

Here are the photos from my install. Please review them for me. The QC guy from the company will be here on Tuesday and I want to be sure I know what I am talking about before he gets here. This is what I have observed:
1. No nitrogen was used while brazing. If this is a problem and caused damage, what should I request be done to correct the issue?
2. I asked about the bold lettering in the heat pump manual which cautions to avoid heat damage to the pressure tap valve core during brazing. The apprentice said that the journeyman did that on the TXV bulb. I said ok and went inside to grab the manual to make sure my memory was not playing tricks on me. I showed him the install guide with the warning and he said they didn't do that outside. Same question as #1.
3. They attached the vacuum and went to lunch. After being gone for about 45 mins, they returned, and charged the system. I didn't see a gauge for measuring the vacuum.
4. I know the DIP switches are wrong. Head installer said the switches are set up for the tonnage and Comfort R but 6 is still off so I don't know if the rest are correct or not
5. If what hvacinncinati said is true, which I believe and matches page 5 of the 4TWX6 manual, the wiring is not correct. I can see that RO is not jumpered and the R-BK jumper is still on from the factory. I am not sure about the wiring on the thermostat and air handler but I suspect they are incorrect as well.
6. I don't know if the airflow on the airhandler was set up properly
7. Thermostat - 170 System Type set to 7, 300 Changeover to 0 and not 1, 340 Remote Temperature Sensor to 1 and not 2?
8. Primary drain not insulated in attic to prevent sweating. Does this even matter?
Anything else I don't even know to ask about? Thanks again for any help offered. Since I have seen some ugliness on here from people who don't like critiquing other's work, all I am going to do is ask for things to be explained to me and if anything needs to be addressed that it be done so in a timely manner.

 

[chucko615]

Line #3 says you didn't see a gauge for measuring vacuum, but in one of your pictures you show a yellow jacket gauge in vacuum. They might not have used a micron gauge, but they did pull a vacuum on your system.

 

[skorepeo]

This is why the trade gets a bad rap!!!

The following statements are not made to bash, put down, slander or embarrass any person or organization or business that may or may not have been involved in this install. Any statements made are my opinion only and to provide an awareness in general of what IMO may be considered "bad" work.

So they did put a vacuum on it but did they do it properly?

Triple evacuation and nitrogen sweep then pull 500 micron vacuum then isolate and check if 500 microns are maintained after at least 10 minutes.

Brazing takes practice, practice, practice but why are they practicing on your system?

This elbow appears to have been melted then filled in. My question is how much solder is on the inside constricting this line?

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC/photo#5053127274935132770

same here

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC/photo#5053127283525067378

I notice that 2 hoses are attached and a third going to I presume the vacuum pump. This leads me to believe that they did not dehydrate the system properly.

Did they explain that they would be back next year to replace the transformer and contactors when these control wires get worn through and short out the coils?

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC/photo#5053127627122451554
http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC/photo#5053127897705391570

Did they supply you with 20 extra fuses so when this arcs and blows a fuse you can just replace the fuse? This is just plain negligent IMO!!!
Any compromise of of a wires insulation may cause arcing, fire and definitely will blow the fuse.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/HVAC/photo#5053128941382444946

Wrong material used and sloppy work. It just doesn't make sense, why why why not do it right the first time?

I would be embarrassed ashamed and humiliated if this was my work!!!

 

[skorepeo]

Proper dehydration

Line #3 says you didn't see a gauge for measuring vacuum, but in one of your pictures you show a yellow jacket gauge in vacuum. They might not have used a micron gauge, but they did pull a vacuum on your system.

Skorepeo recommends using the “triple evacuation”, or “triple sweep” method of evacuating and charging systems with refrigerant. The basic procedure is as follows:

1) Evacuate system for approx. 1 hour using good quality vacuum pump, hoses, and gages.

NOTE: Drain old vacuum oil and fill vacuum pump with new, virgin oil prior to every evacuation cycle. If the vacuum pump runs for an extended period of time (more than 3-4 hours), an oil change is recommended.

2) Break vacuum with dry nitrogen to approx. 2-5 psig pressure. Wait approx. 1 hour for the dry nitrogen to absorb free water in the system.

3) Release nitrogen and evacuate system again for approx. 1 hour.

4) Break vacuum with dry nitrogen to approx. 2-5 psig pressure. Wait approx. 1 hour.

5) Release nitrogen and evacuate to a hard vacuum (500 microns) for approx. 1 hour (longer if necessary). The system should be “dry” enough so that a vacuum of 500 microns or less can be held for at least 10 minutes with the service valves closed and the system isolated.

6) Follow compressor manufacturer’s recommendations for charging the system with refrigerant, and starting the compressor.

Any moisture in a refrigerant system will break down refrigerant into hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid.
It will also freeze up and cause intermittant problems that are hard to diagnose.

 

[slimwoodie]

looks like an average install ...

you can nit pick any job ...
glad your not my customer

just outta curiosity .....

was this contractor .. the low bid ..??

 

[beenthere]

The low voltae wiring is a bit of a rats nest.
Got some bare condutor that should be taken care of.
And yes, the cut wiring needs to be fixed.
Accidents do happen.

Their vacuum practices don't sound the best.
Neither does their brazing skills, don't look good either.

Ducts should be sealed(loose start collar redone also).

Since their QC guy is coming out, and the installers know this. Don't expect everything to be redone to text book. This is their standard work.


None of us can say for sure your system will or will not last because of the vacuum method they used.
They won't recover it now, and triple evac it, and put in virgin refrigerant.

Your best bet is to get the extended 10 year P&L warranty.

 

[Freezeking2000]

Skorepeo recommends using the “triple evacuation”, or “triple sweep” method of evacuating and charging systems with refrigerant. The basic procedure is as follows:

1) Evacuate system for approx. 1 hour using good quality vacuum pump, hoses, and gages.

NOTE: Drain old vacuum oil and fill vacuum pump with new, virgin oil prior to every evacuation cycle. If the vacuum pump runs for an extended period of time (more than 3-4 hours), an oil change is recommended.

2) Break vacuum with dry nitrogen to approx. 2-5 psig pressure. Wait approx. 1 hour for the dry nitrogen to absorb free water in the system.

3) Release nitrogen and evacuate system again for approx. 1 hour.

4) Break vacuum with dry nitrogen to approx. 2-5 psig pressure. Wait approx. 1 hour.

5) Release nitrogen and evacuate to a hard vacuum (500 microns) for approx. 1 hour (longer if necessary). The system should be “dry” enough so that a vacuum of 500 microns or less can be held for at least 10 minutes with the service valves closed and the system isolated.

6) Follow compressor manufacturer’s recommendations for charging the system with refrigerant, and starting the compressor.

Any moisture in a refrigerant system will break down refrigerant into hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid.
It will also freeze up and cause intermittant problems that are hard to diagnose.

This is not common and WAY over the top!

I do what your installers did, no reason for this unless you suspect water entered the system and it looks like you have a new system.

 

[Freezeking2000]

I do not see anything that wrong with the install. Just a little sloppy and they could have tried to purge nitrogen when brazing. I do not usally flow nitrogen unless I have more than a couple joints on a unit.

 

[beenthere]

Freezeking2000, you mean you don't do 6 hour triple evacs on every $50,000.00 2 ton install you do.

 

[BaldLoonie]

Personally I call it pretty sad. Typical only if this is a low budget builder unit. NOT what you should get with high end Trane.

This is a 2 stage pump. There's nothing on Y2? How will it get to high? But then 170 is set to 7 which is 1 stage cool so it won't. It should be on 12. Y1 from the stat is on Y on the air handler board so they'll get low stage compressor and full blast blower.

Yes, it is also not set for Comfort R as pointed out. That should be the first thing an installer does. First 4 should be off on off off. That part looks correct.

You can get by with shortcuts on R22. On R410a, they should use nitro while brazing. They should use a micron gauge to confirm the vacuum. You can have your low size way in a vacuum and still not have much of a vacuum. Did they pressure test with nitro before the vacuum?

The biggest thing is to get the low voltage wiring right and the thermostat set for 2 heat 2 cool if they want it to cool properly.

 

[skorepeo]

Lol

Freezeking2000, you mean you don't do 6 hour triple evacs on every $50,000.00 2 ton install you do.

set the units run the line sets braze it up then start vac and run triple sweep while you do the electric run and duct work.
and 1hour morning coffee break
and 1 hour lunch break

I had braze joints that looked very similar to those but I never neverleft them like that cut them out practiced more put them in better. Jeez at least 2 look like they are cut in half with the torch!!

It looks like 12 joints brazed they used couplings why not swage and then you only have 5 to braze.

 

[Swampfox]

Low voltage wiring is definitely wrong for the 16i, also the stat needs to be set for 3 heat/2 cool, they basically set you up with a single speed system, whoever installed/started up that system needs to go to a Trane class on their high end equipment.

 

[Airmechanical]

*

you sure wont have emergency heat, nothing hooked to x2 on stat!



.

 

[NewUser75]

just outta curiosity .....

was this contractor .. the low bid ..??

WHAT!!! You don't want a customer who knows a little about how things are supposed to be done! How terrible to actually make sure you do everything properly and how the manufacturer details. If you do a proper install, what do you have to worry about? I am not complaining about a vent 2" off or a duct in my way in the attic. I am concerned with the OPTIMUM operation and longevity of my unit.

NO!! We got 5 bids. One was 2K lower than the other 4. The other 4 were within $500 of each other. We ended up going with the 2nd lowest of the high bids. This is the largest contractor in town and has a good reputation and good BBB file. We assumed we would be getting what we paid for given their reputation. Like I said before, the average dumb customer would have absolutely NO idea anything was wrong. They would feel some warm air and cold air and say, "OK, we have air now."

 

[BaldLoonie]

Emergency heat should work, if the 802 is like the 8320, just won't happen as stage 1. They have to wait til 2nd stage of heat calls which means constant blow and backup cycling. Should jump X2 to W2. X2 is E on the 8320.

 

[NewUser75]

Anyone near central Kentucky? How much for a consulting gig? Can pay in cash, check, beer, or climbing gear.

 

[NewUser75]

Is the copper supposed to be cleaned or anything before brazing? Does the clean effects need more tape on the back side? Should the cut wire be replaced? I think they just electrical taped it.

Should I request they completely redo the lineset?

 

[Shophound]

This....

...is just plain sloppy. I don't even need to qualify that with the letters IMO. It is sloppy, period.

Completely disregarding the gaps between drywall and boot, how is the supply register ever going to go on even halfway straight? Ya gotta get the register damper into the boot...it ain't going in there straight, for sure!

Either that or the boot is straight but the hole in the wall is not!


This...

...should be replaced. Not covered with black tape.


This...

...any plans to insulate the suction line where it passes through the wall?


The very fact that you're going around after these guys shows that there was not an escalating amount of trust being built as the job proceeded. Even to a novice, good workmanship stands out. Taking 85 photos of this work does not bode well for the future of your comfort system, or any relationship you might have with this contractor.

 

[Airmechanical]

*

on the 802 stat when wired as a 2 stage heat pump with auxillary backup there is only 1 stage of controlled aux backup!

stat should be set to 3 heat 2 cool!

the way its wired now nothing is hooked to x2, when needed how is any emergency heat gonna work if only x2 and g are energized by the stat

also i am noticing 1 wire on s1 why did they not hook the s2 wire up!



.

 

[NewUser75]

Can someone explain, post photos, or link to a webpage which shows how the duct - vent interface is supposed to look/work when going through the wall and/or ceiling? Also, how should the flexible duct be attached to the main metal duct? They are strapped on to what look like metal flanges with zip ties but there are gaps between the metal ring and the metal duct where one can see the notches in the metal ring. Air can be felt leaking out of these. I took some matches up a little while ago and smoke is getting pulled into the air return around the same metal flanges on the return. Exactly how airtight should these connections be?

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bram.Jennifer/DuctPhotos

Also, noticed they didn't use the clear stickers to go over the knockouts which weren't used.