Gree is one of the worst manufacturers I’ve ever encountered. Just one example of this was how horrible the quality was when Trane contracted them to make their minisplits ( pre Mitsu merger). My best friend who is still in resi was recently dealing with a Gree brand minisplit and even after days couldn’t get any tech support.

 

Gree still makes them.

 

I have not used a Gree Flexx system. I have used lots of Gree minisplits and have not had any problems so far. The Gree minisplits I’ve installed have been nothing special, just the standard 1 outdoor unit and 1 wall hung indoor. Most manufacturers have a similiar offering of “mini split” style outdoor with brand X indoor unit. It will be AHRI rated but you will likely not see that efficiency with the installed system. They do take a knowledgeable tech to commission to ensure you’re getting what you paid for but in reality that’s with any system you chose, that’s why we stress so much to choose the contractor not the brand so much here on hvac-talk.

Consumer reports mean absolutely nothing to me, garbage in equals garbage out.

I’ve never heard of AC pro but there’s many “builder grade” choices or “house brands” that are nothing more than a basic bare bones system that is sold to contractors that are not “dealers” of the parent company manufacturer brand. ie. Lennox parent company, builder/house brands air-ease/ducane/concord etc. a lot of the units are exactly the same as the parent company brand with maybe a different paint color or sticker/badge. ie JCI parent company, main brand York, other brands exactly the same Coleman/Luxaire/Champion, house/builder brands Guardian/Solaire/Fraser Johnston etc. If a contractor buys enough they'll put whatever name on it you want.

American Standard is fine but Trane/American Standard is not any better/worse than anything else in my opinion. Trane/am std also has house/builder brands like Ameristar/RunTru/Oxbox. They all play the same game.

A Heat pump indoor unit will need 240 volt service while a gas furnace uses 120 volts. Depending on how much electric auxiliary heat needed for the indoor unit for a heat pump the wire size feeding the air handler would need increased in size and beaker changed to accommodate.

 

gree tech support hasnt been too big issue to contact in my area. but the 4 and 5 ton older revision had issues with the blowers cutting out and no fault codes. voltages over 245 were in a range where the older revision motors would fault out internally.
the machines seem to work well enough otherwise. use regular thermostats rather than some proprietary and/or communicating tstat.

pretty much ANY system with invertors will not work right on higher voltages, so would need to add an autotransformer (or buck/boost) to adjust voltage where they will work dependably.

 

by higher voltage, I mean 250-257v on a nominal 240, as opposed to 120 vs 240 nominal volts.

 

1. Gree Flexx systems do have AHRI numbers as long as you get a properly matched system. I don't know if these qualify for any rebates. I haven't sold or serviced any of the Gree units but I have also heard from other dealers that tech support is very difficult to get.

2. No. Brand name is not as important as the quality of the install. Any top brand will perform like crap if it's butchered in.

3. Never seen the AC Pro brand name before but the 4AC Allied condensers have been around a long time. When I sold Ducane we used a lot of them with few issues.

4. Everyone has their brand preferences. For every installer who will swear American Standard is too loud I can find you two more who will swear it's so quiet you won't know its on. Again, brand is not as important as installer.

5. If you go to the Gree Flexx the indoor air handler will require two 220V lines - one for the air handler motor and controls and one for the backup strip heaters. Your existing furnace is likely 120V.

 

Thank you all for the info/feedback! I think I'll pass on Gree Flexx; it sounds like these systems aren't common and I don't want to roll the dice.

 

You mentioned AC Pro having some models rebadged, as far as I know they don’t make any of their equipment and all models are rebadged, also I believe they are more of a regional brand. Thinking your located in one of these states, as it seems AC Pro is regional.

“AC Pro is a family-owned heating and air conditioning distributor with highly trained associates and thousands of products in-stock from hundreds of the industry’s top brands. Our many locations serve Southern California, Southern Nevada, and Arizona markets”

Many manufacturers use different coils that can be AHRI matched such as ADP, Aspen, but matching to a actual Air Handler from another manufacturer is difficult.

I believe the Mr. Cool brand Universal Series line is just a rebadged Gree Flexx also.

“One contractor told me they've stopped installing American Standard furnaces because they're "way too loud”

Maybe the ductwork is not correct for the size of furnace, or furnace is oversized?

Here is info on the Federal Tax Credit

https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=845535&d=1678474996

https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits

State rebates ( money in your pocket ) if installing AHRI matched system that meets your state’s minimum threshold. Research yourself to see what they are, some states have a more generous amount than others.

Have them perform a startup/commissioning report once equipment sizing is figured out.

https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/National HVAC Commissioning Checklist _Rev 11.pdf

Make sure to register each section including the indoor coil as manufacturers warranty decreases if system never gets registered. California or Quebec need not be registered to receive the manufacturers maximum warranty.

 

Thanks Joe! Sorry for asking questions you probably hear over and over - this stuff is overwhelming to dive into.

6. When looking up the AHRI number for one air conditioner, I noticed something that seems strange to me. On the AHRI page, the "AHRI Certifed Ratings - AHRI 210/240 - 2023" column shows a much higher SEER2 rating than the Energy Guide label. I thought perhaps the wrong Energy Guide label had been uploaded, but the model number on the Energy Guide label matches. Why is there a big difference in SEER2 rating? Difference between test conditions and real-world conditions? Or does the Energy Guide rating not take into account all of the equipment that went into the AHRI rating?

 

IDK, you never showed the AHRI number to reference, starting in 1/23 they went to SEER2, EER2 and for Heat Pumps HSPF2 something about using a more real world static pressure rating number, thinking from the old .5” to .1” or something like that compared to what SEER, EER and HSPF used in previous years. There are different class of AHRI numbers, active, production stopped to name two.

Manufacturers do say on the outdoor unit a up to rating, or on their web-site which depending on what indoor selection is bidded, those ratings vary. Not real world numbers but it’s nice to know what your getting on paper is what your paying for plus a AHRI number typically is needed for any state rebates. Certainly Contractors bid unmatched systems also, does not mean system won’t work, but your guessing at efficiency ratings, and it certainly can mean a tad less efficiency system due to not matched, even thou the equipment is the same brand and color or not the same brand.

I’m not an expert on all this, but they changed the Federal Tax Credits requirements in 2023 from previous years, seems more complicated to figure out, then they went to SEER2 ratings and also raising the efficiency ratings. It’s up to 14 SEER in Northern states from 13 and to 15 SEER from the previous 14 SEER on certain configuration models. That also started on 1/23

 

AHRI 211254200. The AHRI ratings are EER2: 12.2, SEER2: 20.5, which seems like it would qualify for Energy Star, but the attached Energy Guide label shows EER2 :11.0/ SEER2: 15.3, and the equipment isn't on the Energy Star list AFAICT.

The Armstrong page for the condensor (4SCU23LX) claims it is "Energy Star Most Efficient 2023", but it doesn't come up on the Energy Star product list, and the Energy Star website says that "Most Efficient 2023" for central AC hasn't been published yet...

 

Shows it’s Energy Star rated page 8 amoung other pages

https://www.firstsupply.com/UserFiles/Documents/inRiver/Original/218596_AAE4SCU23LX124P-Brochure.pdf

Also here page one Dated 2023 https://www.firstsupply.com/UserFil...Files/Documents/inRiver/Original/218595_AAE4SCU23LX124P-Specification-Sheet.pdf

Should qualify for any rebates from your state also. What is your states rebate threshold for Air Conditioning? Is the amount decent, as some states are more generous than other states.

Ask the bidding Contractors for this statement from Armstrong Air, it’s the least they can do for you to earn your business IMO

A Manufacturer’s Certification Statement is a signed statement from the manufacturer certifying that the product or component qualifies for the tax credit.

Manufacturers should provide these Certification Statements on their website. Call the manufacturer, or search their website. EPA does not have copies of the Manufacturer's Certification Statements.

Taxpayers must keep a copy of the certification statement for their records, but do not have to submit a copy with their tax return.

That above statement is from the Q & A from the Federal Tax Credits site given you previously.

https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits

For the Tax Credit, looks like you don’t need a AHRI number, just the up to rating of the outdoor unit needs to meet the minimum threshold which you where given and a letter from the manufacturers stating it meets the guidelines.

https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=845535&d=1678474996

To check any AHRI number : https://www.ahridirectory.org/

You have to go to Aspen web-site to register the indoor coil and not Armstrong Air.

 

Thanks! It's weird that the Energy Star website doesn't have the product listed, but maybe they've just been slow to update their website.

On this subject, do any of you pros have any opinion on the Comfort Sync A3 thermostat? I see that the iComfort x30 has some scathing reviews on Lennox's website; it looks like exactly the same thermostat to me. On the other hand, I know that a person with a properly working thermostat isn't likely to spend their time going to Lennox's website to write a positive review... I have spent a lot of time trying to research communicating thermostats on these forums, but whenever a homeowner asks about them, it seems like the pros don't respond to that part of the post.

---

I do feel like there should be a sticky FAQ on this forum. I've collected some of the most useful research info I've found on these forums and elsewhere:

Is my current system the right size for my home/ducts?
No.

How do I determine the right size?
With a Manual J load calculation.

Who is willing to do a Manual J load calculation in my area on an existing residence?
Nobody.

Why is my system so noisy/short cycling/not dehumidifying?
It's the wrong size.

How do I keep all of these manufacturers straight?
- Lennox owns Allied, which also sells under the names Armstrong, AirEase, Concord, and Ducane
- Ingersol Rand owns Trane and American Standard (which effectively are the same company), Ameristar, and Oxbox
- Carrier and Bryant are the same company
- Daikin owns Goodman owns Amana

Which system/brand is best?
The one that is installed correctly.

When should I consider a 5-ton A/C?
If your home is measured in acres instead of square feet, or is located in Death Valley.

:cheers:

 

We wouldn't want you to be misinformed 👇🏻

 

There’s only ~7 major US hvac manufactures and at least 150+ name brands.

Trane, Carrier, Johnson Controls Industries/York, Lennox, Daikan/Goodman, Nortek/Nordyne.

 

On this subject, do any of you pros have any opinion on the Comfort Sync A3 thermostat? I see that the iComfort x30 has some scathing reviews on Lennox's website; it looks like exactly the same thermostat to me. On the other hand, I know that a person with a properly working thermostat isn't likely to spend their time going to Lennox's website to write a positive review... I have spent a lot of time trying to research the convenience and reliability of communicating thermostats on these forums, but whenever a homeowner asks about them, it seems like the pros don't respond to that part of the post. While I believe that a good installer makes a world of difference in the mechanical equipment, there's nothing the installer can do to fix software bugs or bad user interface in the thermostat...

 

I’m not a huge fan of communicating controls mainly because of software bugs, firmware updates, unnecessary complexity to a simple system. When everything is working they’re great but when there’s a bug in the software or something in the system isn’t communicating properly it can be a huge headache to try and figure out. With standard controls I can just grab a new one off the truck and fix it.

I don’t install Lennox (or any of the Lennox brands) so I’m not familiar with the communicating controller you mentioned. I don’t have anything good or bad to say about it. That’s probably the reason you can’t find much talk about various communicating controls on this site from pro members because they’re a very small portion of what any of us work on and each manufactures communicating control is completely different.

 

How do I keep all of these manufacturers straight?
- Lennox owns Allied, which also sells under the names Armstrong, AirEase, Concord, and Ducane
- Ingersol Rand owns Trane and American Standard (which effectively are the same company), Ameristar, and Oxbox which is made by Midea & Nortek.
- Carrier and Bryant are the same company
- Daikin owns Goodman owns Amana

There is now an "Allied" brand under the Lennox umbrella, same as Concord & Ducane.

I believe Ingersoll Rand is out of the picture. That leaves Trane Technologies as the top dog. Remember Run Tru, Trane's answer to the Ameristar.

Carrier wins the award for selling as the most different brands.

Technically Daikin licenses the Amana name.

Then there's Nortek Global HVAC which makes under Frigidaire, Air Temp and a few others. They got rid of several of the appliance brands. And the do make Oxbox furnaces.

 

Rheem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I was aiming for a blend of humorous and informational, so I didn't try to give an exact accounting of every single manufacturer/brand.

Re. the 4SCU23LX, the brochures and webpages for this model all advertise the variable-speed inverter driven compressor. However, the Product Specifications sheet says this:

• Inverter-driven scroll compressor on 5-ton units for true variable capacity operation, precision environmental control, and exceptional energy savings
• Variable rotary speed compressor on 2-, 3-, and 4-ton units

That seems like some deceptive advertising. How significant of a change is this in terms of product performance? Will the variable rotary compressor still support the same general functionality as an inverter-driven scroll compressor, perhaps with less energy efficiency? Or is this like downgrading to a 2-stage unit?

 

A rotary is just a different type of compressor than a scroll. Rotary compressors are the type of compressor that are usually used in minisplits.

 

They way that they worded it, it almost sounds like only the 5 ton unit is driven by an inverter, but maybe that was just poor wording and I'm overthinking it.

 

It’s poor wording, the rotary is still inverter driven just like all the minisplits are they just couldn’t meet the efficiency rating using a rotary in the 5 ton model so they had to use a more expensive scroll compressor.