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First of all, thank you mgenius33 and rundawg for your help, it is truly appreciated.

So with this formula I do not then have to adjust the CFM in the formula as well? If I am measuring 1000CFM with a manometer then I still use the 1000 CFM in the formula?

Thank you in advance for the clarification.
If you input your measured CFM into the formula, the resulting figure from the formula calculation will then tell you how many CFM of "Standard Air" the system is moving.

Check your email too.
 
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ac

Sorry one last question. When dealing with cooling we use 4.5 X cfm X delta H

Can the same correction factors be applied to the 4.5 or am I asking a completly stupid question? If I am wrong could you please give me an example?

Thanks
 
standard air

If you input your measured CFM into the formula, the resulting figure from the formula calculation will then tell you how many CFM of "Standard Air" the system is moving.

Check your email too.
ok, now you've got me confused(easy to do...)

i understand using "standard" ADCF of 1.08. my answer will be answered in "standard air"

ok but in the sensible heat formula cfm is not the answer, btu's are.

if i use a non-standard ADCF, wont my answer reflect the difference?


maybe these are two different questions:gah:
 
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ok, now you've got me confused(easy to do...)

i understand using "standard" ADCF of 1.08. my answer will be answered in "standard air"

ok but in the sensible heat formula cfm is not the answer, btu's are.

if i use a non-standard ADCF, wont my answer reflect the difference?


maybe these are two different questions:gah:
It is just some simple algebra of changing the Sensible Heat formula so the result will be however you want it.

CFM x Delta T x 1.08 = BTUH

BTUH Ă· Delta T x 1.08 = CFM

BTUH Ă· CFM x 1.08 = Delta T

The first two are the most often used.

As you know, when testing air at conditions other than standard, the density of the air being measured is less. Under these conditions, the air actually carries less heat per cubic foot.

Systems are designed for standard air (usually below 2000 ft.). If the unit is installed at 5000 ft., you should calculate how much standard air the system is moving so it is operating within design conditions.
 
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One more fun fact. You should use the average density to get a more accurate calculation.
example: (return temp 70° 50%RH, supply temp 120° 18%RH)
(return density 0.06135 + supply density 0.05615)/2= 0.0587 giving a density of 0.0587, output of ~ 42293 btuh
This is the first time I have ever heard this, would you mind sharing where you learned this?
 
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First, let me explain that this thread is a discussion on basic heat transfer calculations. I emphasize the word BASIC. They are a means to achieve a close estimate. The formula's are not exact, they are in simple math. We should all know that a firm grasp on calculus and physics would be necessary to use the proper formulas. With that said....

We know that temperature, pressure, and humidity are relative to density, no? A psychrometric chart will show this.
As temperature rises, and/or pressure falls, air expands and takes up more space, and there is a rise in specific volume ftÂł/lb. As temperature falls, and/or pressure rises, the air compresses and there is a fall in specific volume.
Density is the inverse being lb/ftÂł. So, as temperature rises and pressure falls, density will fall. This is due to molecules having more energy bouncing off one another, or less compression; this provides more space for the molecules to move in. As we rise in altitude air loses density and gains space between molecules due to loss in pressure. So, the air is less efficient at containing heat, because there are less molecules per cubic foot. You might ask, why is there less heat at higher altitude? Because our air is heated by the Earth through convection. The Sun heats the Earth by radiation.
As humidity rises, density will fall due to hydrogen having less molecular mass than oxygen and nitrogen. Remember density is mass/Volume, or m/V or lb/ftÂł.

davidr
If we are calculating heat transfer, we use temperature rise in the formula. In order to identify the amount of heat transfer, we need to know the amount of air we are dealing with. This is measured in cfm. However, the same 1000cfm at a specific volume of 13.5 ftÂł/lb, will not be equal molecular mass to air at 17.5 ftÂł/lb. Thus not having equal heat content. So, in order to know the heat content we need to know the density.
Now, if there is a temperature or pressure change, then density will change.

If we were only reading heat content in the air, then one density measurement would be fine. However, we are measuring heat gain from return to supply, not just heat in the supply.


I found a handy derivation heat calc formula sheet. I've attached it to this post, and it does mention to average the two.
In a discussion on the Testo 435, Jim Bergmann explained the function of this tool. I would not quote him, because I can't find the thread, but I believe he explained this meter, equipped with two real time probes one in the return and one in the supply, would account for and compensate for the density change.
 

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Mgenius33,

Who is Jim Bergmann? your help has been greatly appreciated. We work for a utility and they have a program that calculates Btuh a little different. I think your formula is more accurate and I am just trying to reference something more than just the hvac-talk forum :).
 
If you Google, Jim Bergmann, you'll find some links related to him. He frequents this site and has made a few helpful instructional videos and pdf manuals on topics such as combustion analysis and airflow.
There are quite a few instructors that use this site, and many high quality technicians.
 
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Mgenius33,

Who is Jim Bergmann? your help has been greatly appreciated. We work for a utility and they have a program that calculates Btuh a little different. I think your formula is more accurate and I am just trying to reference something more than just the hvac-talk forum :).
Look up TRUETECHTOOLS he is an owner, and instructor and scholar.
 
First, let me explain that this thread is a discussion on basic heat transfer calculations. I emphasize the word BASIC. They are a means to achieve a close estimate. The formula's are not exact, they are in simple math. We should all know that a firm grasp on calculus and physics would be necessary to use the proper formulas. With that said....

We know that temperature, pressure, and humidity are relative to density, no? A psychrometric chart will show this.
As temperature rises, and/or pressure falls, air expands and takes up more space, and there is a rise in specific volume ftÂł/lb. As temperature falls, and/or pressure rises, the air compresses and there is a fall in specific volume.
Density is the inverse being lb/ftÂł. So, as temperature rises and pressure falls, density will fall. Thuis is due to molecules having more energy bouncing off one another, or less compression; this provides more space for the molecules to move in. As we rise in altitude air loses density and gains space between molecules due to loss in pressure. So, the air is less efficient at containing heat, because there are less molecules per cubic foot. You might ask, why is there less heat at higher altitude? Because our air is heated by the Earth through convection. The Sun heats the Earth by radiation.
As humidity rises, density will fall due to hydrogen having less molecular mass than oxygen and nitrogen. Remember density is mass/Volume, or m/V or lb/ftÂł.

davidr
If we are calculating heat transfer, we use temperature rise in the formula. In order to identify the amount of heat transfer, we need to know the amount of air we are dealing with. This is measured in cfm. However, the same 1000cfm at a specific volume of 13.5 ftÂł/lb, will not be equal molecular mass to air at 17.5 ftÂł/lb. Thus not having equal heat content. So, in order to know the heat content we need to know the density.
Now, if there is a temperature or pressure change, then density will change.

If we were only reading heat content in the air, then one density measurement would be fine. However, we are measuring heat gain from return to supply, not just heat in the supply.


I found a handy derivation heat calc formula sheet. I've attached it to this post, and it does mention to average the two.
In a discussion on the Testo 435, Jim Bergmann explained the function of this tool. I would not quote him, because I can't find the thread, but I believe he explained this meter, equipped with two real time probes one in the return and one in the supply, would account for and compensate for the density change.
Let's simplify this. For comfort heating with no change in humidity ratio (grains) through the system, the sensible capacity (btu/hr) formula can be expressed in these terms.

(cfm_2 x 60 x dry air density_2 x h2) - (cfm_1 x 60 x dry air density_1 x h1)

The left hand side represents the total quantity of btus passing into the furnace per hour and the right hand side represents the total quantity of btus exiting the furnace per hour. The capacity is simply the difference between these to btu/hr rates. The affect of moisture content is accounted for in the values h1 and h2.

Note that this formula can only be simplified to the more familiar

cfm x 4.5 x H by assuming constant cfm(in vs out) constant density(in vs out) and standard air.

Both the change in cfm and the change in density are factors in the full equation. However, the cfm is inversely proportional to the density, and thus any correction factors for these would cancel out. IOW, the averaging of inlet and outlet densities that you mentioned will provide an incorrect result.

Don't forget to figure in blower motor heat as well.
 
Let's simplify this. For comfort heating with no change in humidity ratio (grains) through the system, the sensible capacity (btu/hr) formula can be expressed in these terms.

(cfm_2 x 60 x dry air density_2 x h2) - (cfm_1 x 60 x dry air density_1 x h1)

The left hand side represents the total quantity of btus passing into the furnace per hour and the right hand side represents the total quantity of btus exiting the furnace per hour. The capacity is simply the difference between these to btu/hr rates. The affect of moisture content is accounted for in the values h1 and h2.

Note that this formula can only be simplified to the more familiar

cfm x 4.5 x H by assuming constant cfm(in vs out) constant density(in vs out) and standard air.

Both the change in cfm and the change in density are factors in the full equation. However, the cfm is inversely proportional to the density, and thus any correction factors for these would cancel out. IOW, the averaging of inlet and outlet densities that you mentioned will provide an incorrect result.

Don't forget to figure in blower motor heat as well.
For clarification,

(Cfm in * Dry air density in) = (Cfm out * Dry air density out)

So by substition and factoring out like terms, we get

(cfm_1 x 60 x dry air density_1 x (h2-h1)

This exactly the same as the simplified equation

Cfm x 4.5 x H x density correction factor. Density change has already been accounted for. HTH.
 
Note that this formula can only be simplified to the more familiar

cfm x 4.5 x H by assuming constant cfm(in vs out) constant density(in vs out) and standard air. There is no "change of state" occuring, so latent heat would not be a factor.

Both the change in cfm and the change in density are factors in the full equation. However, the cfm is inversely proportional to the density??? Can you explain how these are proportional factors when factoring density change? Heat change is proportional to density, thus a change in heat renders a change in density., and thus any correction factors for these would cancel out. IOW, the averaging of inlet and outlet densities that you mentioned will provide an incorrect result.


Don't forget to figure in blower motor heat as well.
I will check the formulas tonight.
 
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There is no "change of state" occuring, so latent heat would not be a factor.[QUOTE/]

It isn't the latent capacity of the moisture that the formula is correcting for. It accounts for the difference in sensible capacity of the moisture in and out.

the cfm is inversely proportional to the density??? Can you explain how these are proportional factors? Heat change is proportional to density, thus a change in heat renders a change in density.

I will check the formulas tonight.
At constant pressure. Clarification posted probably right after you posted this.
 
It's much easier just to use pounds per hour.

Takes the volumetric flow rate confusion out of things. :grin2:
 
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Lol....... Amen to that.

Which calculator are you using?
I've been using linrics but am always looking.
I couldn't find a free program that actually agreed with the ASHREA tables, so I put together a spreadsheet per ASHREA's suggestion in ch. 6 of Fundamentals. It was a tremendous amount of work. I don't recommend that approach. Mine is available in the Educational Forums. It containsa couple of typos and needs to be updated. Until then the latest, and hopefully perfect, version can be downloaded here.


https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8Neejq229dmMzg2MjQ4MzItZjQzMS00ZWNlLWFmYWUtN2RhMmJlZjY4MTZj

If you're viewing the Docs page on a mobile device, then there should be a Download button at the bottom of the page. In desktop viewing mode click on the File menu button at the upper left of the page. From the drop-down menu select "Download original" and if prompted, choose .xls format.
 
I couldn't find a free program that actually agreed with the ASHREA tables, so I put together a spreadsheet per ASHREA's suggestion in ch. 6 of Fundamentals. It was a tremendous amount of work. I don't recommend that approach. Mine is available in the Educational Forums. It containsa couple of typos and needs to be updated. Until then the latest, and hopefully perfect, version can be downloaded here.


https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8Neejq229dmMzg2MjQ4MzItZjQzMS00ZWNlLWFmYWUtN2RhMmJlZjY4MTZj

If you're viewing the Docs page on a mobile device, then there should be a Download button at the bottom of the page. In desktop viewing mode click on the File menu button at the upper left of the page. From the drop-down menu select "Download original" and if prompted, choose .xls format.
Nice!

I'm going to play around with it when I get a chance.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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