[twcpipes]

One last one and I'm outta here

Serverroom, please exclude yourself from this thread and may I say good luck with your project.

1. John, no worries I really wasn't upset. It's cool. Maybe we can hook up sometime. Besides I can't add any more to this thread anyway as it has become somewhat of a fiasco between certain people wanting to get in each others faces with knowledge they don't have. Go figure why jobs don't work 70% of the time.
I still contend it has something to do with the new millenium and "No Children Left Behind". :>/

2. And to you Humid1: (even though I don't know why)
I will endeavor to help you once again. You and your homes cannot be even compared with the commercial arena of server rooms. First off your houses don't necessarily have to operate 24/7 like a server room or any other room requiring exacting temperature and/or RH. Also you need to look at outdoor ambients from a 70 degree viewpoint, not 60-65 for head pressure control. You say you would use hot gas bypass instead of condenser fan control but you have to learn for hot gas and colder ambients you still need head pressure control. That is if you want to do it correctly. Refer to Sporlan technical data for that issue as you really need to learn more in this area for expertise.
The last item would be that until Boss (I'm grateful for him having this website) tells me I don't have as much right to be here as you, I will continue to pass on knowledge to anyone I can help. After all the years I have spent in this Industry and always applying myself to gain knowledge, I don't need your arrogant comments coming my way. You may wish to stay with your little energy-star houses and the residential section of this website. Your choice, of course. I was attempting to pass on some information to help you and others with commercial work in this project vane as I considered this thread to be a commercial section. I normally don't feel I have to explain myself but in this instance, again it may help others.

All take good care in this thing and have a super day.
me, "the pipes"

 

[chillrdude]

Dear Chillrdude,

May I ask what has been your experience in designing, installing, or servicing of server rooms or rooms with very high heat density equipment? Also what has been your experience with operation of a room like this at or below 65 degrees F, or under outside weather conditions below 60 degrees F?

Just curious………

Well I have been doing this kind of work for about 25 years now, I have done a lot of computer and server rooms for the Dept. of Defence, Mead, Lexus Nexus, EDS,and General Motors to name a few. Here in Ohio these systems must work in ambient conditions at times well below zero, as I have stated before I have not and have no plans to read this entire thread but my guess is that the solution to your problem has been stated probably many times, someone is not listening.

There are a lot of smart guys on this board, I am not sure of who all has tried to help you but I know that twcpipes has helped a lot of people on here and (not knowing him personally) I think he knows his stuff. If you are not going to listen to Tom, you are probably not listening to the others in the thread that have tried to help, am I dumb enough to think you will listen to me.....

So getting back to the convention, you hosting or what?

 

[Diceman]

I'd like to see diceman and chillerdude suggest systems for that room too

Liebert, surely you heard of them......or like I said the window unit,maybe 2 window units, set one thermostat slightly cooler, that will be the 1st stage.

 

[Diceman]

short and sweet.....I wasn't able to spend that money....I wanted a 20-25,000 liebert system, but couldn't get it installed (not in my budget, and couldn't get more money, kicked and screamed, but it didn't work)

[Edited by serverroomcooling on 01-21-2005 at 01:54 PM]

That is exactly what I said awhile back.
Have seen it many times, I'm sure others here have as well.

 

[Diceman]

Anyway, servman sounds like soooo many computer guys, spend millions on computers and cheaps out on the cooling system.

Here.............a few pages back.......

Even if it wasn't his choice, that is the problem.

 

[serverroomcooling]

no one is not listening here....I just can't seem to find a qualified hvac guy in South Florida....The liebert guy rescheduled for Wed afternoon to come and take all the requested readings....so I'll wait until then.

My install guy is still awol, and the other hvac guys I called never showed up.....

Again, please don't accuse people of not listening, that is certainly not what is going on here...I can't do anything without readings, I can't make modifications myself, I am trying very hard to get someone in here to recommend what to do....if the system is humming fine now and will be that way at 70 with little problems, at this point I'm fine....If I could get someone to install a Liebert for me and finance it so it isn't a $20,000 hit that is an option too, but not the moral one since I was denied funding in the first place....I will get the funding if the system continues to fail, and it is not.

Would you like to know the reason why it hasn't failed???

BECAUSE I AM LISTENING TO THE RECOMENDATIONS. My tstat is at 70 and will always remain there....period

 

[serverroomcooling]

budgeting is always a problem, but we must fight on

it's a big problem....I'm not in charge of my budget....I fought very hard to get a 3 ton AC...originally I was only going to have 1.5 tons....Some hvac guys said I need 5 tons...I came here to find out the horrors of oversizing a system....we still don't know if I'm sized properly...I think I am, and I will know after the readings are taken on Wed.

 

[Diceman]

I read the 1st page here again. You said you had quotes for 3-5 tons, Liebert makes a mini-mate or something like that, for smaller applications, it ain't that expensive.

 

[john dalton]

Your comparing applea to oranges my friend...they're not the same.

Dear Thehumid1,

Regarding your previous post to TWCpipes:

I agree with 99% of what you said in point one of your reply to TWCpipes. You in fact, never said the outside temperature doesn’t drop below 60 degrees F, you actual said the outside temperature does drop below 60 degrees, but only for a few days out of the year. What I wanted to point out was that you stated that Serverroomcooling could simply open his window in the Server Room when it was 48 degrees outside, install a fan, shut off his A/C, and get the room down below 65 degrees F. Although I know you were only kidding, I’d like to point out, if memory serves me right after viewing the photos that he posted, that this is an interior solid un-openable window adjacent to another interior area of the building, and therefore wouldn’t work under those conditions. Like I said, a small issue only, say…..1%....lol.

I do have to point out one thing regarding point two of your reply to TWCpipes though. This project is NOT “residential cooling” in nature. It IS “process cooling” in nature. That one distinction means the following:

1. Process HVAC systems capacity requirements are designed on “worst case scenarios” in terms of outside temperature and humidity.

2. Process HVAC systems operating priority lists energy efficentency below operational ability under all outside conditions.

In other words, the HVAC system must be able to work under all “foreseeable” scenarios, such as the occasional hot, cold, humid, or dry weather conditions. And yes, although you made fun of it, emergency stand by generators are required at some process cooling sites.

In addition, the HVAC design engineer, installation, and service personnel that work with these two different HVAC systems must poses different skills, abilities, knowledge, test equipment, and experience in fulfilling their duties in dealing with these systems.

That’s not to say that the basic refrigeration cycle is different between the two systems, it is not, but it is to say that the application of the basic refrigeration cycle to the particular process cooling system can be totally and utterly different.

In conclusion, residential and process cooling systems are two entirely different types of HVAC systems that have different priorities and functions when it comes to their designs, installations, operation, and service. Therefore, although some people may see similarities existing between the two, comparisons of the two should never be made.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

 

[serverroomcooling]

I read the 1st page here again. You said you had quotes for 3-5 tons, Liebert makes a mini-mate or something like that, for smaller applications, it ain't that expensive.

and if you were around to recomend that system, I may have had that installed....I started this thread prior to installing the system I have now. I was looking for recomendations then.

You could have been the hero...I don't know what that min mate is or what it costs, but if it was between 8 and 12 thousand, I may have been able to get it. I heard of their challenger series too.

too little too late, maybe the liebert guy will recomend that unit as a replacement when this thing becomes unreliable, or when we find out I'm undersized!!!

[Edited by serverroomcooling on 01-21-2005 at 03:27 PM]

 

[john dalton]

Dear Tinner73,

Good thing I’m a mechanical engineer who specializes in server rooms then hun…….

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

 

[Diceman]

You 2 guys are giving me a headache.......

 

[chillrdude]

Allrightey then, lets not get our shorts bound up over this problem. From what I have read, your problem is:

1. You dont know what your true load is.
2. You want to be able to maintain 65 degrees.
3. You dont care about the RH% in the room.
4. When you crank the stat to 65 the thing freezes up.
5. You're not sure how to fund the convention.

My questions would be (and I know if I read the whole thread I could find the answer, but you know).

Does it freeze up with the stat at 65 and the ambient temp up?

It has obviously been running fine for a couple of weeks at 70, has your ambient temps been cold.

I was going to ask why cant you find anyone in S. Florida worth a sh*t, but I guess that is actually part of your problem.

Bottom line is the thing freezes up on you, isnt that the real problem you have?

 

[Diceman]

No one ever told you about this?

http://www.liebert.com/dynamic/displayproduct.asp?ID=725&cycles=60Hz

 

[serverroomcooling]

diceman....quit checking the thread, the headache will disappear!!!!

I will have some readings for you very soon....the install guy is here now....he can get me everything but the bulb readings, he doesn't have the right machine for that in the shop.

I'll post them as soon as he gives them to me

 

[serverroomcooling]

nope...never heard of that one...but that contact guy is the Liebert guy who will come in next week....I have that space in my drop ceiling, maybe I'll sneak it up there and get a second system installed....obviously price in always a consideration...I can finance and treat it like a maintenance fee and get it done. I'll speak with the Liebert guy on Wed about the overall system, hopefully he will pick up the ball and make me disappear from the this web site!!!!

Wouldn't that make everyone soooo happy??

 

[Diceman]

I have found over the years that when something isn't working right and requires numerous service calls, discussions and meetings all involving highly technical data
as well as arugments over design and installation.............then......someone screwed up something simple and doesn't wanna admit to it.

 

[Diceman]

hopefully he will pick up the ball and make me disappear from the this web site!!!!

Wouldn't that make everyone soooo happy??

Don't do that, Dalton might shoot himself.

 

[tinner73]

Dear Tinner73,

Good thing I’m a mechanical engineer who specializes in server rooms then hun…….

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

i just got here. if you're a M.E. where did this go wrong??
lemme guess as usual a $$$$$$$$$ issue?

 

[serverroomcooling]

Partial readings (Fianlly)

here's what I have:

Suction Line pressure = 67

Liquid Line Pressure = 214

FLA .90

RLA 16.0

Running AMPs at compressor 12.3 AMPs (at 3:45 74 degrees outside...compressor is in direct sunlight, humidity is 45%)

CFM is 400 at each of my 3 drops.

CFM at return could not be accurately measured b/c it's a open stand, no actual ductwork

CFM was gathered by setting the cfm reader setting to 1000 and the pin went all the way to the right to 500, he said that means the CFM is 400 at the drop, he got the same measurment from all 3 drops....I was only there to witness the one furthest from the handler.

Compressor model number is 2TTR2036A1000AA

handler model # is TWE036P13FB0


They say everything is fine and I can drop my tstat to 65 and not worry about a freeze up....but I'm staying at 70