$1 per pound? So you're paying under $2 for as much gas as you'd get from a $14 tank of nitrogen? That's awesome.

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AND, it'll fit in a decent sized toolbag.

I'm gonna torture the details of that regulator out of him...

 

I'm going to make a suggestion to my boss tomorrow! Maybe I'll get a raise for my fiscal fortitude!

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I looked closer at the numbers.

I only fill the 24 ounce paint ball can with 1 pound of CO2. That way I don't blow the cold liquid out and freeze stuff. That equates to 8 cubic feet of CO2 for $1. You get 40 cubic feet of Nitrogen in one bottle, so the 20 pound $20 bulk CO2 tank holds 160 cubic feet of CO2. Than means the costs equivalent to nitrogen is $5 for 40 cubic feet worth of CO2. But, what is actually more priceless is that my hands don't hurt from lugging a nitrogen bottle and I don't need to refill as often. An added bonus is that when the CO2 tank goes empty, you won't be stuck. That is because there is still about 5 pounds of gas left in the tank to finish the jobs that you are on. It is like having an reserve tank on the truck.

Show him this video.


[video=youtube;SL_qQaP0yaA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL_qQaP0yaA[/video]

 

Why u use that torch tip?


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Awesome video. I thought R410A was drain blaster with a blow gun. But I never tried it.

 

Thanks.

I actually priced R410A vs CO2 for cleaning the hundreds of drains that I do yearly. The problem with R410A is that (it is illegal) and your leak detector is useless after you clean a drain with R410a and decide to leak check. Also, R410A is about $3 per pound vs $1 per pound of CO2.

I'll clean out drains that the plumbers turn down. I actually have a vacuum machine that can lift water and drain slime straight up 20 feet just from the vacuum.

Here is a video of the worlds most powerful (a/c powered) drain vacuum. I can actually draw about 120 CFM thru the drain line. The winds in the pipe are fast enough to lift large rust straight up 1 story. Notice that the bucket is aluminum lined so that it doesn't collapse. I do a lot of condos that have drain lines from hell. CO2 is only for the small drains. This bad boy is for the man sized condensate drains.

[video=youtube;Ol4O_TD5X6Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol4O_TD5X6Y[/video]

 

Everything you need is on ebay.

 

Thank, I am posting to remember this thread!

 

If you could come up with a way to incorporate the little bb gun cartridges that I buy from walmart for my gallo gun; I could braze with co2 without my coworkers noticing and giving me a ton of grief for wasting time and trying to do things right...

 

Been there my friend.
My favorite was when I'd come up with an excuse for why I was taking so long pulling a vacuum. "Just pull a quick vac or purge with refer" is what I would be told........
Being looked at like you're a hack for doing the job the correct way........ "PRICELESS"
LMAO

 

There isn't enough volume in the gallo gun. Just tell your coworkers that they are gay.

 

Using an inert gas, how long should a 5 TR compressor replacement take, on a 1st story rooftop package unit? I was told 5 hours on the time sheet. I asked about picking up the compressor and traveling to the jobsite. I was told that's on my own time. What about Nitrogen flow? Or having to return the sealed compressor for warranty? I was told "you probably Recover too".

 

Your asking the wrong guy about time. I work for myself, so the job takes as long as it is going to take. I would be glad to finish the job in 8 hours.

As for inert gas: For me, it reduces the time on the job. That is because the solder is drawn into the fitting better without all the copper oxides. So, my soldering goes faster with inert gas than without.

Flow is as little as possible. I actually bought a flow meter, but I never use it. just a trickle is all it takes after an initial high flow purge to clear out all the refrigerant and oxygen.

 

Brazing is in the title of this thread
And what's wrong with soldering with a purge?
I didn't see your
confirmed CO2 = no good as soldering flow gas

 

All of the joints in that video were braze joints, not solder joints.
The black stuff is not "slag."

 

It has been a long time since I have had any discussion about CO2 as an inert gas. The conclusion I was told is that CO2 when exposed to heat and moisture will form Carbonic Acid. You may have prevented scale from forming during brazing, but may have created another contaminate during its use. The use of nitrogen is the industry standard and is a true inert gas. I carry both gases on my rig, CO2 is used to blow out condensers, nitrogen is used to braze in a condenser coil.:.02:

 

I do believe that Co2 meets most of the qualifications for use as a purge gas:
It prevents oxidation during the brazing process and the brazing is done at a low enough temperature that the carbon in the CO2 does not seem to create a problem. Pretty good so far...

I am an old school tech, and over those long years have had the opportunity to read a lot of instruction manuals and manufacturers recommendations and the fine details on the prints that qualify what you must do in a Med Gas situation or on a Refrigeration system, especially. All of them specify using "dry" nitrogen as a purge and leak checking gas.

The issue is moisture and contaminants more than anything else, especially from a manufacturers perspective. Their worst nightmare is having to pay Lawyers to sit around and wait for some hack to improperly install their equipment and then want to sue the manufacturer for making that "junk" equipment they couldn't install correctly.

If you use "dry" nitrogen, (a type of certification or guarantee of purity) everyone knows what you are getting. The manufacturers, the Lawyers and You. Starting to play around with things you can't actually qualify to the lawyers will only work until you get caught, and what happens then, well, that will work itself out when it happens. Sometimes not so well for the Hack when he has to say "best Practices" were not followed in front of twenty lawyers. Good luck with that!

Tanks are heavy, I know. I have 200' of hose in my truck, and If I can't get within 200' of my equipment, well, then I'm not being lazy enough! But at least I know that using Nitrogen will meet all manufacturers recommendations, and until they start saying it's OK to use CO2 as a purge, then I'll keep to my old school ways and purge with dry nitrogen.

Dry nitrogen is also an Inert gas, and I don't believe that CO2 is an inert gas. Being inert, nitrogen will not react to temperature changes to the same extent as CO2, which will react to changes in temperature with a corresponding change in pressure. Not so good for use as a pressure test, unless you take that into account, like when you mix a refrigerant with nitrogen on a leak check. A large swing in temperature (like from morning to late afternoon on a rooftop) could cause a pressure increase, masking a leak, so after using the mix to find the leak, I would then purge and pressure test with just the dry nitrogen to get the most accurate pressure test that I could then likely rely on the results, even in front of Lawyers.

But, guessing is OK as well, it is just manufacturers and their lawyers make a stint about what they call, oh so vaguely, "Best Practices".

And as to it being to hard to do it "right", the tanks are too heavy, whatever. The old timers will tell you to suck it up and realize that this is part of the Blood Price this trade will realize and why some are not cut out for it in the long run. Doing it right is not always easy, but its best to do it that way in the long run...just ask any old time tech or any married man...

 

I do believe that Co2 meets most of the qualifications for use as a purge gas:
It prevents oxidation during the brazing process and the brazing is done at a low enough temperature that the carbon in the CO2 does not seem to create a problem. Pretty good so far...

I am an old school tech, and over those long years have had the opportunity to read a lot of instruction manuals and manufacturers recommendations and the fine details on the prints that qualify what you must do in a Med Gas situation or on a Refrigeration system, especially. All of them specify using "dry" nitrogen as a purge and leak checking gas.

The issue is moisture and contaminants more than anything else, especially from a manufacturers perspective. Their worst nightmare is having to pay Lawyers to sit around and wait for some hack to improperly install their equipment and then want to sue the manufacturer for making that "junk" equipment they couldn't install correctly.

If you use "dry" nitrogen, (a type of certification or guarantee of purity) everyone knows what you are getting. The manufacturers, the Lawyers and You. Starting to play around with things you can't actually qualify to the lawyers will only work until you get caught, and what happens then, well, that will work itself out when it happens. Sometimes not so well for the Hack when he has to say "best Practices" were not followed in front of twenty lawyers. Good luck with that!

Tanks are heavy, I know. I have 200' of hose in my truck, and If I can't get within 200' of my equipment, well, then I'm not being lazy enough! But at least I know that using Nitrogen will meet all manufacturers recommendations, and until they start saying it's OK to use CO2 as a purge, then I'll keep to my old school ways and purge with dry nitrogen.

Dry nitrogen is also an Inert gas, and I don't believe that CO2 is an inert gas. Being inert, nitrogen will not react to temperature changes to the same extent as CO2, which will react to changes in temperature with a corresponding change in pressure. Not so good for use as a pressure test, unless you take that into account, like when you mix a refrigerant with nitrogen on a leak check. A large swing in temperature (like from morning to late afternoon on a rooftop) could cause a pressure increase, masking a leak, so after using the mix to find the leak, I would then purge and pressure test with just the dry nitrogen to get the most accurate pressure test that I could then likely rely on the results, even in front of Lawyers.

But, guessing is OK as well, it is just manufacturers and their lawyers make a stint about what they call, oh so vaguely, "Best Practices".

And as to it being to hard to do it "right", the tanks are too heavy, whatever. The old timers will tell you to suck it up and realize that this is part of the Blood Price this trade will realize and why some are not cut out for it in the long run. Doing it right is not always easy, but its best to do it that way in the long run...just ask any old time tech or any married man...

This is wrong.

Gasses, from CO2 to Nitrogen and even "Noble" gasses like Helium and Xenon will follow the gas laws when exposed to temperature changes.

Whether or not they are inert has exactly no bearing on their reaction to temperature, only their reaction to other chemicals.

 

My supplier sells "extra dry" CO2 and "dry" CO2. The regular CO2 is $21 for 20 pounds. The "extra dry" is $28 for 50 pounds. The only difference is that the 50 pound bottles are evacuated first. So, the question is will the regular "dry" CO2 bottles ever be refilled wet? Personally, I don't care because I evacuate the system.

I'm surprised that I seem to be the first person to use CO2 for brazing? My knuckles can't handle carrying the nitrogen bottles anymore, that is the main reason I use CO2.

Anybody concerned with the dryness can use the 50 pound bulk bottles. Heck, it is half the price of CO2 anyway, which makes it 5 times cheaper than $14 nitrogen bottles.

 

You are not the first
And I've seen it in manuals as accepted
Lots of guys use it

 

Sweet. You guys have way more knowledge than the internet. I couldn't find anything on the net before I started using it.

By the way, in a production setting where thousands of pounds of nitrogen are used at the factory, CO2 is way more expensive than nitrogen. I'm sure that is why the manufacturers don't use it.

 

I'm just posting in order to find this thread again.

 

I made a short brazing video with CO2 as the inert gas. One 24 ounce paint ball bottle holds about the same amount of gas as a 40 cubic foot nitrogen bottle. CO2 is inert for brazing. It is so stable that it can also be used in gas tungsten arc welding at temperatures of 10,000 degrees F. My CO2 supplier sells dry CO2 and “non-dry” CO2 for laboratory use. I use the non-dry CO2, because it is only $1 per pound. The only difference is that they don’t pull a vacuum on the bulk 20 pound tanks before they fill them. I pull a vacuum on the a/c system, so I don’t care what ppm the water content the CO2 is. “non-dry” CO2 is still a lot dryer then ambient air anyway.

This video shows the difference between soldering with and without an inert gas in the pipe.

We have used CO2 for years, I originally bought a kit made by Sherman T. You get a 5# cylinder, a regulator, and a 90 degree coupling. You can then buy a bulk 75# CO2 siphon tank from your gas supplier for filling at the shop. You can buy additional aluminum cylinders and they are light weight, and CO2 like refrigerant is in liquid state. So no more carrying cast iron cylinders that are 2 to 3 times bigger for the same amount of gas.

Actually I just picked up a mig welder and it makes a great shielding gas as well.

Never going back to nitrogen, unless I can have it delivered to a job site for a sizable piping installation.

 

CO2 is probably more inert than nitrogen for welding.

 

CO2 is probably more inert than nitrogen for welding.

You're stubborn huh? I told you that CO2 is an "active gas", and a reliable reference to support this.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...n-us/support/process-and-theory/Pages/shielding-gas-for-flux-cored-welding.aspx

You're basically arguing against Lincoln Electric's words who I think knows what they're talking about more so than you.

 

I like your video and I really like your ingenuity.

That said, you are retarded.

Do you have any concept of what that cylinder will do to you if you accidentally overfill it or it has a failure? Your face is going to look like a hand grenade went off at a deli counter.

By the looks of it you do great work but then cut corners in the one department that is the most important... Safety.

Please keep your ticking time bomb out of central Ohio. K? Thanx.

 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, I thought that is what the scale is for, as well as the relief valve?

 

I thought brazing with a cutting tool too close to a cylinder of R410 was a little wacky.

 

I have to ask a dumb question: Why are nitrogen bottles safer? I suppose you are going to say that you can't over fill them. You are correct about that. CO2 will potentially blow up if over filled, but I haven't seen any incidents of that occurring on the internet. The rupture disk actually fails at around 2,500 psi before the tank fails. However, there are a lot of carbon fiber CO2 tanks on the market. I would be suspicious of them dropping off a roof.

I'm all for safety. And I don't mind being retarded. What US or international standard/certification says nitrogen bottles are safe and CO2 bottles are unsafe? I actually do view the OSHA safety investigation videos, and I have seen plenty of oxygen tank failures. I know what tank failures will do to people, because I have seen it. But, those tank failures were all related to oil in the threads igniting inside the bottle.

Here is why overfilling CO2 is very bad. If you spend a few minutes looking at the chart, you will see that filling the tank 50% (which is what I do) keeps the pressure below 1,400 psi even when the tank is 120 deg F. Even filling to 80% is considered safe, because the pressure only reaches 1,600 psi at 120 deg F. You can extrapolate to 160 deg F and filling to 50% will keep the tank below 2000 psi even in death valley.

Fill the tank to 100% the rated fill and the rupture disc will pop at 140 deg. I can say from experience that it is very difficult to fill the tank that much. You have to use an ice bath to get the tank cold, or keep the tank filling for a very long time. But, I'm no expert on CO2 tank overfilling. You will have to ask the paint ball guys about that. I think they outnumber the a/c guys using nitrogen.

PLEASE USE A SCALE TO FILL LIKE A SAY IN THE VIDEO. I WILL ADD SOME SAFETY TEXT IN THE VIDEO ABOUT THAT. YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD POINT THAT SOMEONE MIGHT SPEND 5 MINUTES OVERFILLING A CO2 BOTTLE. This forum is supposed to be for professionals. But, I'm sure some newbees will read this and try to blow them selves up because they think a CO2 bottle is supposed to be filled 100%. Hopefully, the rupture disc will do it's job and prevent ignorance from leading to tragedy.

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