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Well then, without anything to dispute my ridiculous thinking that a higher capacity furnace needing to use more electricity is going to cost more to operate, I guess you will just keep justifying the installation of oversized furnaces while I continue to promote the installation of "less" oversized furnaces.

It seems the wrongly used term; "undersized" is what strikes fear in people with furnaces. All furnaces that are exactly sized properly to exact load loss calculations are "oversized" most of the time. So, installing a bit more capacity then the load loss calc calls for is adding even more oversizing to an already oversized system. Conversely, reducing the capacity slightly is better to be said to be not oversizing the furnace as much.
(Imagine this spoken in a cockney English accent): By jove, I think he's got it... :)

The key as I am reading it to avoid the word 'under-sized'... funny how a word polarizes folks thinking.
 
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Trust me I know exactly what your saying...... However, let's say you have a 3200 sqft ranch. Load comes out to, let's say 93000 BTU. You well know, the mods we sell are 80 or 100. Given the example of the uncommon weather we've had what would you suggest? When we sit down with the customer (people with the check book) and explain that "normally" the only problem keeping up would be a couple hours before they wake up. Now, throw in that they may set back the stat. Given these factors (normal) and throw in the unknown factor (uncommon weather temps) the furnace wouldn't keep up holding temp but recover from the set back. Customer might be slightly pissed they spent 10G on a top of the line system.
Not trying to argue, just looking at all views and comments to find something I may have overlooked and why. Just trying to be the best for my customers.
With that particular system, if there were no dramatic things to do to tighten up the house, I would go with the 100k furnace. The 80k furnace in that case is taking too much of a chance.

Better would be to talk the consumer into zoning day/night usage areas and install the 80k with a two zone system.
 
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With that particular system, if there were no dramatic things to do to tighten up the house, I would go with the 100k furnace. The 80k furnace in that case is taking too much of a chance.

Better would be to talk the consumer into zoning day/night usage areas and install the 80k with a two zone system.
Interesting thought. Even if the house is completely open? Bedrooms on one side of house and open layout from there on out. I like that idea, but wouldn't it defeat the total comfort of the mod furnace? I could definately see that happening with a two story, but a ranch I would be very hesitant to zone it with the smaller of the two. Thoughts?
 
Interesting thought. Even if the house is completely open? Bedrooms on one side of house and open layout from there on out. I like that idea, but wouldn't it defeat the total comfort of the mod furnace? I could definately see that happening with a two story, but a ranch I would be very hesitant to zone it with the smaller of the two. Thoughts?
Even a rancher, I'd zone for day/night usage in a heartbeat. There is no way a home is going to lose it's heat on one side of the home fast enough to have a problem within any days zoning period. I doubt the lower temperatures will be achieved in the areas that are zoned to be off because of it being an open layout, but you are still only going to be conditioning one side at a time with a little more loss.
 
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Well then, without anything to dispute my ridiculous thinking that a higher capacity furnace needing to use more electricity is going to cost more to operate, I guess you will just keep justifying the installation of oversized furnaces while I continue to promote the installation of "less" oversized furnaces.

You don't even know what size furnaces I put in what size places.

A large motor moving 90 pounds of air a minute doesn't use more HP then a smaller motor moving 90 pounds of air a minute. it uses the same amount of HP. Thats in the fan laws.



It seems the wrongly used term; "undersized" is what strikes fear in people with furnaces. All furnaces that are exactly sized properly to exact load loss calculations are "oversized" most of the time. So, installing a bit more capacity then the load loss calc calls for is adding even more oversizing to an already oversized system. Conversely, reducing the capacity slightly is better to be said to be not oversizing the furnace as much.
So you don't sell comfort systems. And apparently, don't recommend comfort systems. Since a comfort system wouldn't require people to use a supplemental source of heat, when its at design temps outside.

My explanations have been for the example that was posted. You keep wanting to go off and generalize on things that aren't even in the example that was posted.

No reason to use a 60,000 input furnace on a home with a 67,000 loss. Using an 80,000 is the better choice.

I don't sell space heaters with the furnace for the design temp days and nights.

A central heating system, isn't suppose to need space heaters.
 
So you don't sell comfort systems. And apparently, don't recommend comfort systems. Since a comfort system wouldn't require people to use a supplemental source of heat, when its at design temps outside.

My explanations have been for the example that was posted. You keep wanting to go off and generalize on things that aren't even in the example that was posted.

No reason to use a 60,000 input furnace on a home with a 67,000 loss. Using an 80,000 is the better choice.

I don't sell space heaters with the furnace for the design temp days and nights.

A central heating system, isn't suppose to need space heaters.
Whatever, beenthere. Seems you've made up your mind, so there's no need to confuse you with facts.
 
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Whatever, beenthere. Seems you've made up your mind, so there's no need to confuse you with facts.

Well. When you post an actual fact about this. I'll worry about being confused then.


Looks like your the one that has his mind made up. So don't bother looking at the fan laws.
 
Well. When you post an actual fact about this. I'll worry about being confused then.


Looks like your the one that has his mind made up. So don't bother looking at the fan laws.
Oh come on with your alleged fan laws; if a blower motor is larger it is going to draw more amps (use more watts for those who like to nitpick) and cost more to push the same amount of air with a larger blower.

I don't know what kind of "fan laws" you are thinking of, but without any actual facts, I can understand your confusion.

By what you are stating, there is no difference in any size furnace as long as it is larger then required.

Oh, and look this up in your "fan laws"; a smaller furnace does not need to push as much air as a larger one does. I suppose that doesn't make any difference in energy usage either, eh?

Ironically, while having this conversation I received a call from a contractor who needs me to do an audit on a home where the multistaged heating and cooling are oversized and causing comfort issues.
 
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if the spaceheater is needed, that makes the installing company look bad



.
I agree, and this is not the intent of properly sizing equipment without oversizing as much as the extreme temperature targets dictate.

As usual, those who dispute me also misquote me.
 
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Maybe you want to check the amp draw of a blower as you set it to lower speeds. It draws less amperage(uses less watts) as it moves less air.

So now. The fan laws aren't facts. Hmmm.

Oh, thats right. If it doesn't agree with your thought. Its not a fact.


Later.
 
that's commerce crank calling you:D



.
:LOL:It's one of my contractors that just wants support for when he tells this HO what the problems with this very expensive, 4 year old multi staged system is. HO says the contractor increased the size of the equipment more then the addition to the house called for claiming that since it is multi-staged it will run mostly on low stage with "plenty" to spare if needed.

I suppose that "if needed" covers for when all of the windows are open and the system is still satisfying the t-stat.

Hey beenthere; this one of your system installs. Removed a 2.5 ton system when a master bedroom suite was added above the garage and replaced it with a 5 ton system. I know, it's twice the capacity but because it is doing the same job it will cost the same to operate; right, beenthere?
 
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Maybe you want to check the amp draw of a blower as you set it to lower speeds. It draws less amperage(uses less watts) as it moves less air.

So now. The fan laws aren't facts. Hmmm.

Oh, thats right. If it doesn't agree with your thought. Its not a fact.


Later.
You haven't shown any fan law fact that supports what you are sayiing.
 
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:LOL:It's one of my contractors that just wants support for when he tells this HO what the problems with this very expensive, 4 year old multi staged system is. HO says the contractor increased the size of the equipment more then the addition to the house called for claiming that since it is multi-staged it will run mostly on low stage with "plenty" to spare if needed.

I suppose that "if needed" covers for when all of the windows are open and the system is still satisfying the t-stat.

Hey beenthere; this one of your system installs. Removed a 2.5 ton system when a master bedroom suite was added above the garage and replaced it with a 5 ton system. I know, it's twice the capacity but because it is doing the same job it will cost the same to operate; right, beenthere?
You always want to read more into a post then is there.

Never said anything about a heat pump.

I wouldn't have installed a larger system on the old duct work.

I suppose, you'll have them rip it out. And install a 1.5 ton. And just use window units on the hot days, and space heaters when its cold outside. And say, hey, you have a comfort system. When its 70°F outside, you'll be comfortable. ROFL.
 
Maybe you want to check the amp draw of a blower as you set it to lower speeds. It draws less amperage(uses less watts) as it moves less air.

So now. The fan laws aren't facts. Hmmm.

Oh, thats right. If it doesn't agree with your thought. Its not a fact.


Later.
You keep avoiding that the larger system you are saying doesn't use any more energy needs to push more air.
 
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You always want to read more into a post then is there.

Never said anything about a heat pump.

I wouldn't have installed a larger system on the old duct work.

I suppose, you'll have them rip it out. And install a 1.5 ton. And just use window units on the hot days, and space heaters when its cold outside. And say, hey, you have a comfort system. When its 70°F outside, you'll be comfortable. ROFL.
Who said anything about a heat pump? Actually, I don't even know what this system is. The contractor only told me the cooling capacity.

Why would I have them install a 1-1/2 ton? If 2-1/2 ton was doing the job before the addition, then it is only the additional loss/load for the addition that needs to be calculated in. More likely a 3 ton, but could be more depending on circumstances of insulation etc.

Once again, you are just ad libing what I said.

Then again, you didn't answer about this being one of your jobs:eek2:
 
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Well if you don't have a copy, and or can't look them up. I feel sorry for your customers.
What a cop out. Now you want me to try to prove you right on something I don't believe you are right on.

So let me ask you something; if you have a high static situation and install a larger HP motor on to the same blower to overcome the SP, will it cost more to operate that higher HP motor?
 
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