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Not sure if the control can do dual fuel.

GA would know better then me. If it can. Its not bias on what heat pump though.
Not sure the chain of posts here, however since my name was brought up I assume (bad idea...:)) we are talking about the Rheem/Ruud (R/R) MOD.

The board in the furnace does NOT have any way to control the reversing valve, and since the T-stat is a slave to the furnace board, I think the answer is no. My understanding is that one needs to use a separate DF kit. Now how one will hook up this kit... well I have not looked into this (yet)... And since it is in question... well this gives me an excuse to go through the IOM manual again and find the answer... after dinner and Email.
 
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Wow, lots of conflicting comments! Some mods have to fire on high to protect against condensing in primaries, some don't.

Some installers are comfortable going to closest size down from the j, some think they should add their own fudge to the multiple fudge factors already built into the j.

Some think efficiency ratings are obtained instantaneously, and cycling is no big deal (this seems in direct contradiction with the mantra that oversizing is bad, as single stage is basically always oversized), others think long and low is the way to maximum comfort and efficiency.

Some think number of stages matter, others think output range is the important feature.

Here's a question; if stages offer significant comfort benefits, and you don't notice a furnace shifting between stages, why would you need more stages? If 3 stages gives perfect comfort, why do you need 4? Why on earth would you need 10?

I suspect mods require so many stages because they are continuously guessing what is going on, they have to constantly adjust, relying on logic and return temps rather than actually knowing what is going on at the thermostat, tracking what is going on in the living space. I guess if a 3 stage was constantly shifting it might be noticeable under some circumstances.

5 years from now all equipment will be communicating, making much of this conversation obsolete.
Aside from the posts by one antagonist, there really are not conflicting thoughts about staged furnaces, just everyone looking at them from different perspectives.

That is good. There is no "one type fits all" furnace. While a properly sized mod furnace would always be good in all applications, it is not really necessary in many applications. Why pay for something that is not going to have an appreciable difference?
 
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The Rheem mod when using the Rheem mod thermostat is modulated by the thermostat modulation signal. So it isn't guessing what is going on in the living space. And it does have 13 steps of modulation.
A similar algoryhmic program is on the furnace board of the UPG brands mod furnace.

These algorythmic programs constantly keep track of temperature changes, lengths of time of furnace operation at what level of heat capacity. Over a few days of learning, these programs anticipate current heat needs by past heat usages. Since these programs are constantly updating, they are very accurate at anticipating heat needs.
 
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At the expense of 'throwing gasoline on the fire'...

BINGO!!!


OK, here is my take: 13 steps gives enough steps to pretty well smooth out the mod cycle. Remember that the idea is for the furnace to run CONTINUOUSLY. To do this without jumping back and forth as much, there is the need for more than 3-4-5 steps. Given the R/R (Rheem/Ruud) was designed in the early 1990's, I think they settled on 13 because it was 'enough' at that time. I doubt many folks could tell the difference between 13 and 50 steps.

And personally, I think the sensors at the stat makes more sense. Remember that the R/R MOD does have return and supply temp sensor also... more logic here than the UPG IMO... :)
Ya do realize that every guy claims that what he has is all that is needed and that those who have more are just a waste:yes:
 
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A similar algoryhmic program is on the furnace board of the UPG brands mod furnace.

These algorythmic programs constantly keep track of temperature changes, lengths of time of furnace operation at what level of heat capacity. Over a few days of learning, these programs anticipate current heat needs by past heat usages. Since these programs are constantly updating, they are very accurate at anticipating heat needs.

Yea. I know.

I talked(email correspondence) with a guy from one of the independent labs that tested them.

They actually hold a tighter temp then advertised. When used with a digital thermostat.
 
I would still appreciate, if possible, an answer to my previous question that went unanswered: Which specific manufacturers and model number explicitly require that their mod furnace either be sized or include firmware that periodically forces them into a high-fire stage to protect the HE from premature failure caused by condensation? Thanks.
Can't answer for all brands, but UPG mods start out at 70% for proper preheat and Goodman/Amana two stage furnaces are forced into high fire every 12 minutes.

This is not a brand difference. Physics dictates that the heat exchangers must warm up to above the dew point of the combustion flue gases or acidic condensate will form.

Why does this matter to you?
 
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The answer is none.

All of them do start up in intermediate fire to bring the heat exchanger quickly to temperature. This is not for condensation though, but efficiency.
Is this your "professional" opinion? Just how does this affect efficiency? What is it that you think causes condensation in furnaces? Are you telling us that the higher efficiency gas furnaces have not had major condensate issues? Where do you get this information from?

And by the way, you are also still wrong about only Rheem and Carrier modulating up and down.
 
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RoBoTeq seemed to be using the requirement to periodically high-fire a mod furnace as one of the bullet points in his list as to why he would not install an oversized mod furnace in a smaller house.

I was assuming that his position wasn't just his opinion, but was based explicit written (manufacturer's sizing/installation manual) or a first hand conversation with a manufacturer's technical representative. Therefore, I was interested in the brands/models where he knew this to be the case.
My comments are not my opinions, but rather industry known and addressed issues during the troubleshooting of why high efficiency heat exchangers fail. Aside from condensate issues, constant low fire situations on LP furnaces have also had sooting issues.

You will not find this information in I/O manuals as these are service and design issues that are taken care of in house by the manufacturers. I have worked directly for two furnace manufacturer's in my career and have worked directly with the chief engineer of one of these manufacturers doing data research in the field with furnaces operating under real life conditions.

I have no idea what commerce does for a living or why he keeps posting misinformation on this site, but he is consistantly wrong about the things he posts.
 
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Concerning the 'high-fire' discussion; I think Robo explained in a previous post about lighter metal construction in HXE (heat exchangers) to achieve higher efficiencies. And with the thin metal HXE's, we have a condensation corrosion problem. Going into 'high-fire' heats up the HXE a little more and 'boils off' the potential condensation inside and outside the HXE.

One way to solve this is to use the 'set-back' feature on the T-stat. This way, twice a day the furnace will go into high-fire (or close to it) to recover from the previous lower temp. Personally, I have experimented with different amounts of set-back, and found that more than 3-4 (max 5) D of setback costs more energy to recover than to just stay at temp. So: perhaps a 2-3D setback in the day, and a 4-5D setback at nite when sleeping... and the furnace will go into high-fire twice a day.

Robo; Do you think this would be adequate to protect an HXE from corrosion?
One major issue with condensate is the amount of hydrogen in the gas, expecially LP gas. On initial start up, the heat exchangers can easily be at dewpoint for the amount of moisture that is in the gas/combustion air mixture. Even a slight film of condensate on a spot of a heat exchanger becomes a problem when heated by the furnace burners.

For the pros here, you have all seen that tubular heat exchangers, even stainless steel ones, always burn through at the first bend in the tubing. That is where initial condensate forms and is superheated by the heat from the burners. Add the mildly acidic nature of that condensate to the mix and you can see how condensate can adversely affect heat exchangers.

So, high fire is needed more then just twice a day. High fire is needed in every cycle. How high that fire must be to prevent condensate may vary from manufacture to manufacturer or even brands within the same manufacturer, but all manufacturer's are doing what they must to prevent premature heat exchanger failures.
 
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It is difficult to write clearly with a disclaimer in every sentence. Even pros would have to do qualify every statement by the standards you suggest. In this case, only a furnace design engineer would be able to speak with absolute authority, and even then, another engineer could have a different professional opinion.

My answer of "none" is based on what I know. I gave my reasoning behind the answer so anyone can tell if I'm full of it or not. If you prefer absolute statements without rationales, there are plenty of those to choose from on this thread! I could end up being wrong of course, but I doubt it in this case (reasons given). Three posters will no doubt call me an idiot, but not rebut my post otherwise other than to say I'm wrong. If history is any lesson.
In your continued attempts at bashing me because you don't like me (your claim) you keep posting assumptions that you are basing on why manufactures of furnaces have strong warranties and/or what you believe to be reasonable. From what position is your authority for determining what is reasonable when it comes to furnaces?

The very fact that longer warranties are put on heat exchangers is exactly why they are being protected from condensate issues.

Please note that the three members of this forum who continuously bring up that you constantly post misinformation are all HVAC professionals from technicians to contractors to manufacturer's regional technical service manager.

I would still like to know what your purpose for hanging around an HVAC site stirring up crap is. Are you a groupy? Did your wife run away with an HVAC tech and you just hate us all? Are you lonely? I just don't get how someone who is so continuously wrong in his arguments would keep arguing.
 
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Not true, not even close.

Most, if not all, multistage furnaces will stage up and down on command from the stat.

Trane and Am Std mods also modulate up and down based on what the stat tells them to do if they are used with the communicating stat. If a 2 stage stat is used it will still go back to low fire when the stat changes its call from hi stage to lo stage.

If all you can post is misinfo, please don't post.

Thank-you,

Chuck
The UPG mods also stage up and down depending on whether the board is overshooting or undershooting an anticipated cycle. This is even in the I/O manuals, which it seems is the main source of commerce's data. Shame he doesn't even understand what he gleans from this narrow source of information about these furnaces.

You do realize that may just have made commerces list of HVAC professionals that he will continue bashing on this site.:whistle:
 
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If this is such a problem, why not make the heat exchangers/burners from the older and more corrosion resistant thicker metals? Perhaps then a mod could be made to supplement a smaller home without any reason to ever fire high., bigger homes as well obviously. I mean, how much more efficient is this thinner metal exchanger?

Just a thought.
The heat exchangers are made of thinner materials because they have to be to meet the efficiency requirements. Less mass equals faster heat transfer. Why do you think we have so many refrigerant coil leaks today as compared to thirty years ago? Same basic reasoning.
 
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All of them do start up in intermediate fire to bring the heat exchanger quickly to temperature. This is not for condensation though, but efficiency.
Just how does this affect efficiency?
I, for one, can give a straight answer. Heat exchangers must be in a certain range for optimal heat transfer. Too low or too high and more heat ends up in the flue.

You spend a lot of time saying that I'm wrong without actually providing information. For example saying I'm wrong that only the Infinity and the Rheem stage up and down. You are right, but we had to hear the answer from chuckcrj.

You say I'm wrong about modulators starting up in intermediate fire, but then cite this example:

Can't answer for all brands, but UPG mods start out at 70% for proper preheat
Isn't that what I said? What modulator goes into high fire to prevent the condensation issues you claim? For all anyone knows, you could be right. Just provide the example.
 
In your continued attempts at bashing me because you don't like me (your claim) you keep posting assumptions that you are basing on why manufactures of furnaces have strong warranties and/or what you believe to be reasonable. From what position is your authority for determining what is reasonable when it comes to furnaces?

The very fact that longer warranties are put on heat exchangers is exactly why they are being protected from condensate issues.

Please note that the three members of this forum who continuously bring up that you constantly post misinformation are all HVAC professionals from technicians to contractors to manufacturer's regional technical service manager.

I would still like to know what your purpose for hanging around an HVAC site stirring up crap is. Are you a groupy? Did your wife run away with an HVAC tech and you just hate us all? Are you lonely? I just don't get how someone who is so continuously wrong in his arguments would keep arguing.
Actually, it is you that is constantly making personal comments. Where are mine? If I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit it, and have done so in this thread. All you have to do is post actual facts, documents, or rationale why what I posted is wrong. Shouldn't be that hard. What facts have you provided in this post that rebuts anything I have posted? I'm not the only one here not making sense of your posts. And there are no doubt many more who also don't get what you are saying but don't want to be bullied if they reply.
 
The algorythem program would not work with dual fuel. I liked it better when Rheem referred to this as fuzzy logic.
Just a heads up Robo, the MOD has a new board in it, it appears to be the same board as in the new RGPE (80% 2 stage VS) furnaces... replaced the RGPR and UGPR line. Also uses the ECM 3.0 motor now.
 
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York/UPG doesn't. It won't go to its full modulation until either its very cold outside. Or if your thermostat is coming out of set back, it might go to its full modulation when its at the mid temps of your outdoor design temp.

Other then that. It doesn't reach full modulation more then half of the year.
The UPG mods all start out at 70% capacity. This must be where the JCI engineers determined that the heat exchanger would not hit dewpoint on startup.
 
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