Any significant improvements coming soon to ComfortLink II ?

clyde1 · Sep 5, 2010

Getting close to purchasing a replacement system for our home. Been doing some research (just enough to be dangerous) and it seems most comparisons between ComfortLink II and Infinity control end up favoring the Infinity system, and it has been this way for quite a while. Thus I would think Trane would be taking steps to narrow the gap. Anybody know if that's the case? And should this factor very heavily into our purchase decision?

----- If interested in the rest of the story, please continue (any and all comments greatly appreciated), but above are the two main questions -------

First, sorry for adding to the long list of Trane vs Carrier questions.

It's not at all what I expected to happen, but I've ended up focusing only on high end systems now (encouraged by manufacturer rebates), and now just between Trane and Carrier. Been leaning toward a Trane system (good feeling about the contractor, but Carrier contractor seems fine too). But if going high end, suddenly the complex communication / controller system is starting to matter more to me. Even considered a zone control system (but not very likely due to budget). Sounds like the ComfortLink II controller isn't as plug-n-play, with more chance of improper setup than Infinity (and doesn't support zone control, which we probably won't need, but still bugs me for some reason)

Don't have the exact systems selected yet, and in fact still struggling with AC vs heat pump. But here is kind of where we are right now. Trane XL20i AC (or maybe heat pump) with XC95m, and looks like the recommendation will be 3ton and either 80k or 100k BTU. Or Carrier Infinity 21 (or Infinity 16 Heat Pump) with ??? furnace. Dehumidifying is important to us. We're in the midwest (hot seems darn hot, cold seems darn cold, but cooling has always been the bigger challenge for us, and looks like some of our ductwork may need to change). Again, if not for the ComfortLink II reviews, had been leaning toward the XL20i (I kind of like the 2-compressor concept over 2-stage, but what do I know, they both sound great). Thanks !

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

I've installed both and either system will work great for you. Be warned though, the Carrier Infinity thermostats are confusing to use. Buttons on every side and not very well labeled. After you learn to use it you'll be ok, but it will confuse the heck out of guests. Carrier will be brining out a new Infinity thermostat with their inverter systems later this year.

Choose a heat pump system. It'll save you some on utility bills vs the gas furnace.

Do you have trees, bushes or kids that will drop things in the top of the unit? If so, go with Trane (the WeatherGuard top is handy).

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

If you are thinking about zoning, pick the Carrier hands down. I would also take a look at the new Lennox SLP89V - full modulator plus a new controller that appears to be close to Carrier's. <see a quote from earlier today that I pasted below>

If you have the luxury of waiting, Carrier's new line is due this year. The Infinity is going to full modulating and rumor has that it will have the highest output range in the industry. No doubt the inverter based AC/HP will be expensive, but also worth waiting for. Right now, I would look at Performance level AC/HP, you don't lose much from Infinity except cost and you still get the benefits from the Infinity controller. Infinity inside unit, and Performance outside.

doug goldberg said:
I have an SLP98V (110K) + Icomfort + 14ACX going in next week. Ive read the service and install manuals for the Icomfort and -98. A very nice advance in the control end for Lennox . Im getting the outside temp sensor installed so I can control the humidifier via dew point which the IComfort supports. It also supports a host of options, such as CFM delivered etc., from its GUI instead of the furnace control board DIP switches. I also found out that the -98/IComfort combo has some very advanced control algorithms that Lennox has developed. For example when coming out of a setback it will decide based upon the delta between desired and current temperature to start at 35/60/80 or 100% of heat capacity and modulate from those settings. It monitors the temp rise / time and decides which modulation ramp to use to provide the most comfort. The amount of programmability via the stat is quite impressive and Im looking forward to tweaking it to get the most performance. YMMV.

clyde1 · Sep 5, 2010

Thanks TxTurbo and commerce48.

I could wait longer if it makes sense. The main time constraints are

(a) tax credit (don't want to take a chance they don't renew the program next year)
(b) existing AC has gone kaput, and we've decided not to throw anymore money at fixing the old one. So definitely must be before next summer
(c) I see some manufacturer rebate deadlines (e.g. from Carrier) that apply for a little while longer this year

I didn't know anything about Carrier's new line coming out soon, or the inverter systems. Do you have any idea when Carrier's fully modulating infinity comes out (and what does the full modulating really mean for me?).

And to be honest, I never even priced out a Lennox system. I just assumed they would be too much, but I should probably give them a chance.

Regarding Carrier's Performance vs Infinity series for the HP, I was thinking about that originally, but then the stupid Carrier rebate got me thinking more about the Infinity HP. I should price it both ways to see how they compare.

This should probably be a different thread, and I haven't asked a contractor about it yet, but are zone systems very practical, when adding to an existing home? When I looked online on cost of damper controls, it seems like it would add up pretty quickly.

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

I always thought high end Carrier was the most expensive for standard HVAC. Just pulled up some quotes from last year and found a quote from one company for both Lennox G71 and Carrier Infinity (both were the current high end at the time). The Carrier quote was 20% more than Lennox. I didn't even consider Lennox at the time because the modulating was unsophisticated, the controls were not as good, and since the Lennox started at 70,000 btu, it was way oversized for my house.

I tend to discount manufacturer rebates as A. they depend on dealer participation, and B. they generally require buying something that you (or at least I) don't want, like a dumb ass cleaner, humidifier, or HP. A non participating dealer may end up at the same cost without all the BS.

The tax credit is worth doing of course. From a business standpoint, it is possible that the manufacturers will get into a last minute rebate/discount war at the end of the year for a few lucky people - which is effectively what raised house sales the last couple months of the housing credit. But that is a gamble of course.

If your house needs zoning and a new furnace, there is no way I would consider anything besides Carrier. Every other zoning system is effectively dumb and often requires an inefficient bypass.

If your house has pretty even temperature control now, say no more than 2 to 4 degrees difference, you might consider some fine tuning of your ductwork to balance airflow appropriately. That should cost less than zoning.

As far as modulating goes, it probably won't get you much over the very sophisticated Infinity three stage. But it is far better than any two stage for at least two reasons. The overall goal of any furnace is to run continuously, exactly matching your home's heat loss with replacement heat. Oversized furnaces (which technically all single and two stage furnaces are most of the time) have short cycles (the time they are on), which makes them slightly less energy efficient (heat exchanger coming up to temp), a little bit more likely to have a heat exchanger failure (from increase heating and cool off cycles), and lower comfort from higher fan speeds and more temperature variance.

Only a modulating furnace, or a staged furnace with the current heat loss that lies between the two or three stages have a shot at matching the heat loss and running continuously.

So varying the heat output is one reason to pick a modulator. The range of that varying output is the other reason. The Infinity three stage and current modulating models from several brands can run at a much lower output than two stage models. They vary from as little as 35 to 100 percent of their rated output. Two stage models bottom out at 65/70 percent of rated output. That means the run time on modulators can be twice as long as two stage furnaces in moderate outdoor temperatures.

If it is true that the new Carrier can go down to 25 percent, that means the run time could potentially be three times as long as a two stage under the right conditions. I don't think anyone knows when the new stuff is coming out, might not even make it this year. But I'm hanging out anyway. There might be a tax credit next year and for me, I'd prefer to have what I really want - I've got to live with it for 20 years.

It sounds like you are a heat pump guy. Which makes a really nice fit for modulating furnaces. When the outside temps are too low for the heat pump, a modulating furnace's low range kicks in. I might get one when my AC bites the dust, but the price is difficult to justify for my needs.

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

Not sure what you mean by 'every other zoning system is effectively dumb'. Trane's zoning system is just as integrated as Carrier's and has easier-to-use controls IMO. So does Lennox. They're not as well advertised, but they perform the same function on the high-end communicating equipment as Carrier does.

I don't know what Carrier's timeline is (last I heard was 'before the end of the year'). The inverter-driven systems vary capacity based on the need of the home in both heating and cooling modes. They generally will ramp up from 10% to 110% of their rated capacity. I can tell you they will be pricey.

Just FYI, manufacture rebates are generally 50/50 split with the dealer, so you're probably getting charged for at least half of that rebate.

If you can hold off until April or so, you may find the landscape of the HVAC world has changed a bit. But that doesn't help your federal tax credits.

Airmechanical · Sep 5, 2010

*

clyde1 said:
Been doing some research (just enough to be dangerous) and it seems most comparisons between ComfortLink II and Infinity control end up favoring the Infinity system

and it has been this way for quite a while. Thus I would think Trane would be taking steps to narrow the gap. Anybody know if that's the case? And should this factor very heavily into our purchase decision?!

you got it backwards the Trane communicating system is trying to get mocked by Infinity

the Trane controller is twice as easy to navigate with airflow adjustments that an Infinity owner could only want

.

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

Airmechanical said:
you got it backwards the Trane communicating system is trying to get mocked by Infinity the Trane controller is twice as easy to navigate with airflow adjustments that an Infinity owner could only want.

Hmm... Trane had these communicating features before Carrier? Hadn't heard that before, in fact it was often said here that others would not be able to copy Carrier because of their patents. Doesn't matter, competition is good.

So you can read CFM and static with the Trane controller? Could you post a link to the manual?

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

TxTurbo said:
Not sure what you mean by 'every other zoning system is effectively dumb'. Trane's zoning system is just as integrated as Carrier's and has easier-to-use controls IMO. So does Lennox. They're not as well advertised, but they perform the same function on the high-end communicating equipment as Carrier does.

Are these new this year? You are right, not well advertised and I've not seen it mentioned on HVAC-TALK either. Fully modulating communicating dampers? Do you have any links to the manuals?

clyde1 · Sep 5, 2010

Wow, I've really learned a lot from this thread. Thanks for taking the time to provide detailed responses. Hopefully others will benefit too.

I have some follow-up questions on cooling, but first let me summarize what I've learned on heating.

A good 3-stage furnace can approach the overall performance of a good modulating furnace, but when combined with a heat pump, a modulating furnace is a really nice fit. (for the XC95m, I haven't yet been able to figure out how far down it will modulate)

For cooling, ideally we could also have a "modulating" compressor. I went to Wikipedia to understand what an inverter system is. Sounds like it achieves variable rate by changing the speed of the motor (which takes a lot of things to make that happen, type of motor / control / ....).

So unless I'm willing to wait, and pay extra for the first Carrier inverter systems, some of the options available today are (a) Infinity 21 2-stage compressor, or (b) XL20i 2-compressor. Of these two options, the 2-compressor has the larger difference between "low" and "high". In general, the larger difference will result in longer run times. In situations where 70% capacity is needed, the 2-stage happens to work out better. In situations where 55% capacity is needed, the 2-compressor works out better........

For better dehumidifying and constant temperature, running continuously would be more ideal (which is what the inverter systems would come closest to providing).

Do I have that basically correct?

Do we have any idea how much more the inverter systems will cost? Will they basically make new 2-stage or 2-compressor approaches become obsolete in a few years for high end systems?

TxTurbo, you mentioned the landscape will be changing. Is this because of the inverter systems? And do we know what Trane has in the works for us. I still think they are due for an updated controller system it seems like.

Anyway, for those keeping score, this is where I am right now.

Assuming we don't go with a zone system, I have not by any means ruled out the XC95m + XL20i combination. But I plan to get an estimate on a Lennox system, and an updated estimate on a Carrier system with the features I want. And I'm going to try and find out when the new inverter systems will be out.

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

clyde1 said:
A good 3-stage furnace can approach the overall performance of a good modulating furnace, but when combined with a heat pump, a modulating furnace is a really nice fit. (for the XC95m, I haven't yet been able to figure out how far down it will modulate)

With a bit of marketing hyperbole, Carrier brochures refer to the current three stage as "modulating". The term is undefined. Three stages, 15 stages, 60 stages, 100 stages, which is modulating? Does it matter? Probably not a lot, sophistication of controlling software matter more.

The XC95m has the same range as Carrier 40 to 100 percent. As far as I know, all current modulators have the same range except for the York/Coleman/Luxaire which goes down to 35 percent.

For cooling, ideally we could also have a "modulating" compressor. I went to Wikipedia to understand what an inverter system is. Sounds like it achieves variable rate by changing the speed of the motor (which takes a lot of things to make that happen, type of motor / control / ....).

There are two similar units designed for forced air now on the market. Nordynes IQ AC/HP and Mitsubishi's Zuba Central HP (only available in Canada on this continent). Both are expensive and have outrageous energy efficiency. Minisplits have the same inverter technology. Those are available for residences but are much more common commercially. They are the tall rectangular units you often see outside industrial buildings. They basically run a mini coil with a sophisticated fan and controller into each room, no ductwork. Very quiet and efficient.

For better dehumidifying and constant temperature, running continuously would be more ideal (which is what the inverter systems would come closest to providing).

Do I have that basically correct?

Yes.

Do we have any idea how much more the inverter systems will cost? Will they basically make new 2-stage or 2-compressor approaches become obsolete in a few years for high end systems?

At least 20 percent. Hopefully they will make all non inverters obsolete. As is the case I hear in Europe - possibly because of a different regulatory/cost environment (high taxes on energy consumption).

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

commerce48 said:
Are these new this year? You are right, not well advertised and I've not seen it mentioned on HVAC-TALK either. Fully modulating communicating dampers? Do you have any links to the manuals?

I don't know how new they are. Take a look at page 9 of the attached document. I have the installers guides around the shop somewhere.

clyde1: Yes, that is what I meant. The inverter systems are the way HVAC systems are going because of the their extremely high efficiency.

Trane does have an updated system coming out with a nice full-color touch screen thermostat and a reduction to using 2 wires for communication. Beyond that I don't know what other features may be included.

You're on the right track!

commerce48 · Sep 5, 2010

TxTurbo said:
I don't know how new they are. Take a look at page 9 of the attached document. I have the installers guides around the shop somewhere.

Thanks. From page 9:

Integrated ZoneTM System
• Full modulating zone operation

Any idea of what fully modulating means? Do the dampers themselves have multiple positions? It appears that each zone requires its own board. That would seem to limit each zone's ability to coordinate with other zones. "Integrated Zone" sounds more like marketing than a description of operation based on what I read.

Most of what I know is just from reading here and manufacturer consumer sites. The only descriptions I've read about zoning forced air systems are limited to Carrier and two after market systems. This is the first time I've read of other "integrated" manufacturer systems. I'd be very happy to read more about any of them.

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

With the Trane, fully modulating means that it will modulate the equipment along with the zone changes. For example if zone 2 is closed and zone 1 calls for cooling, only the first stage of the Heat Pump or furnace will kick in.

It works just like the Carrier system, balancing the needs of each zone and the stages of the equipment.

The difference between the manufacture-integrated systems and the third party systems (like Honeywell) is that they are designed to work specifically with the communicating equipment, recognizing the abilities of each unit and utilizing them to the fullest extent.

With a third party system you have to wire up the equipment stages separately, it works similarly, just not as seamless of an integration.

clyde1 · Sep 5, 2010

If I were building a new house, it would seem that a mix of ductless (for AC and possibly heat pump) and duct (for gas heat) would be ideal. I'm assuming running the lines for ductless after the fact would be difficult.

Couple questions.

If comparing say the XL20i or Infinity 21 type solution with a ducted inverter system, is it possible to roughly estimate what the energy savings would be each year in the midwest? Put another way, if comparing (1) an older 10 SEER single stage product, with (2) the XL20i or Infinity 21, and (3) some newer duct based inverter system, am I correct in assuming that the savings from (1) to (2) is much bigger than the savings from (2) to (3) ? Maybe the XL20i or Infinity 21 would get me pretty close to what the newer inverter systems will provide, when compared to what we've been paying ??????

I'll probably not rush into the new system until I have a better understanding of when the new stuff will come out. But in case I can't get clear answers on availability, and I decide to take the plunge sooner than later, the answer to the above will let me know what I'm giving up.

Next question (should probably be a separate thread). When I hear how a lot of energy is lost in leaky ducts or in ducts that aren't well insulated, do we really lose all of that, or do we get some of it back? What I mean is, for leaks in the basement ducts, that's not totally waisted is it. And for leaks in the floor joist ducts between 1st & 2nd floor, I'm assuming it's not totally waisted either. I realize that by it not getting delivered where you want it, it's less efficient, so best avoided. And I would assume leaks or poor duct insulation for runs on the outer walls are the most waistful.

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

http://www.hvacopcost.com/

You can compare the equipment and how it will affect your utility bills. Just make sure all of the entries are accurate (utility costs, etc).

Ducts that run under a house or in an attic are the most wasteful Ducts that leak into a wall or between floors aren't much better. A very important part of an HVAC system is that 2nd letter, V for Ventilation. If the air doesn't reach the room, how can it control the humidity and temperature of that room?

Heating can work by radiance (heat up a wall or floor and it can heat the room) but Air Conditioning requires direct exchange of air. Thus the name. So leaking ducts are an issue, no matter where the ducts are located.

clyde1 · Sep 5, 2010

Thanks for the explanation on leaky ducts. Makes sense.

For the energy comparison, what SEER do you think I should I use for the newer Inverter based systems? For the XL20i, looks like I should use 20 for AC, 19 for HP.

TxTurbo · Sep 5, 2010

The Nordyne IQ Drive (inverter driven units) are 20-24 SEER. Mitsubishi mini-splits are in the same range.

As the technology gets better I would expect this to be the starting range of efficiency, it'll just go up from here.

Trane's XL20i is 'up to 20 SEER'. Most of the system matches are 17-18.

Airmechanical · Sep 5, 2010

*

commerce48 said:
Hmm... Trane had these communicating features before Carrier? Hadn't heard that before, in fact it was often said here that others would not be able to copy Carrier because of their patents. Doesn't matter, competition is good.

So you can read CFM and static with the Trane controller? Could you post a link to the manual?

http://www.bayareaservice.com/Manuals/tcont900.pdf

here is the manual

look at all the custom airflow availabilities (thank me later)

any questions

no it does not have the silly static reading that carrier has

the static reading does the end user no good what so ever

if static reading need to be taken to make modifications, static readings are taken easily with a manometer

.

commerce48 · Sep 6, 2010

TxTurbo said:
With the Trane, fully modulating means that it will modulate the equipment along with the zone changes. For example if zone 2 is closed and zone 1 calls for cooling, only the first stage of the Heat Pump or furnace will kick in.

It works just like the Carrier system, balancing the needs of each zone and the stages of the equipment.

As I understand it, Carrier takes zoning several notches above that baseline. Each damper can use its entire rage from fully closed to fully open. I believe most other zoning dampers are open or closed. Carrier can take realtime temperatures in combination with historic changes in temperature for each zone and intelligently make decisions about how far to open each damper. It does this in conjunction with static pressure calculations - effectively making the whole house the dump zone, but with no wasted efficiency.

That's integrated! It is also automatic setup, requiring much less skill on the part of the tech.

Any significant improvements coming soon to ComfortLink II ?

clyde1

TxTurbo

commerce48

clyde1

commerce48

TxTurbo

Airmechanical

commerce48

commerce48

clyde1

commerce48

TxTurbo

commerce48

TxTurbo

clyde1

TxTurbo

clyde1

TxTurbo

Airmechanical

commerce48

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities