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ESP on large air handlers?

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#41 ·
jp

if you remove the discharge air control from the drive?

what are you going to use to control discharge air??

is the old w7100 controller still there??????????????

either way you eventually need to change that ridiculous method of discharge air control

POOR COMPRESSORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Discussion starter · #42 ·
Let's see if I can remember all of the questions and credits that need to be addressed...

Carnak.

Static pressure profiling, yes. I've been calling it benchmarking. Making notes of how the system is running NOW so that later when something changes, I can find it.

I'm trying to find a good, effective way of cleaning this coil. Is a TOUGH nut to crack. Got the AC coil which is easily accessible. 4" after that (in the direction of airflow) is the heat coil. 6" later is the big electric heater bank.

VERY, VERY hard to get a pressure washer on that coil. Anyone have any experience using foaming cleaners on a coil of this size? Maybe a 10 gallon bucket of Viper foam and a day with a pressure washer? :anyone:

Also, thank you for the performance data. Is better than what I had. Is an older air handler (20+ years) so the model number may be obsolete. Label said Barry Blower a division of Wein MacLane. Is in a Bohn unit, so I might ought to call Bohn.....

4 solenoids, but it only operates as 2 stages of cooling. That could be an issue that I never thought of, too.

This is a grocery store, so ultimately, I need to control the humidity more than any other factor. All roads lead to getting humidity under control to minimize case sweating and ice build-up.

bobbym. NEver thought of something else in the return air causing an obstruction. Was stuck on the heat coil, and I kind of still am. Again, something ELSE to consider.

bergermech, Anemometer is on the shopping list, too. Too many tools and not enough cash in my tool budget to buy them. :mad:

St, This BMS control doesn't know how to control fan speed based on anything but supply air temp. I'm probably going to set it up so that min speed is 50% for energy savings when no conditioning is required, but use setpoints so that the fan speed will jump to 100%. Effectively, an expensive 2 speed arrangement.

I have been pushing the customer to get rid of this big lump of scrap metal for years, now, but it isn't happening any time soon, I guess.

If I lose another pump, I'll put in an accumulator.

Guess I've got another day there looking at all of this stuff.
 
#43 ·
Barry Blower was snyder general for a while which I believe was a McQuay derivative now they seem to be merged in with Penn. I used to have quite a library of old catalogs but lost them in 2004 when a storm trashed my office.

I use this selection program to reverse engineer a lot of forward curved stuff, has some handy utilities with it such as drive selection, amp/horsepower tables etc

http://www.delhi-industries.com/delair-fan-selection-software.html

I worked for an OEM back in the day, usually we used Lau forward curve wheels. Was not a big difference when we used delhi, a couple RPM and or a slight change in brake horsepower.

Try a few other fan mfgs like Twin City, Greenheck, Northern Blower, you may be able to glean some fan data as well they make a fair amount of airfoil fans like you are seeing on this unit.

Curious on your heating coil, is it perhaps a reclaim coil from the racks, be nice to set that up for some reheat to help control the humidity
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Carnak said:
Barry Blower was snyder general for a while which I believe was a McQuay derivative now they seem to be merged in with Penn. I used to have quite a library of old catalogs but lost them in 2004 when a storm trashed my office.

I use this selection program to reverse engineer a lot of forward curved stuff, has some handy utilities with it such as drive selection, amp/horsepower tables etc

http://www.delhi-industries.com/delair-fan-selection-software.html

I worked for an OEM back in the day, usually we used Lau forward curve wheels. Was not a big difference when we used delhi, a couple RPM and or a slight change in brake horsepower.

Try a few other fan mfgs like Twin City, Greenheck, Northern Blower, you may be able to glean some fan data as well they make a fair amount of airfoil fans like you are seeing on this unit.

Curious on your heating coil, is it perhaps a reclaim coil from the racks, be nice to set that up for some reheat to help control the humidity
Click to expand...
I have basically the entire LAU catalog, but I didn't take the time to browse through it. Didn't think of it because it wasn't LAU. Am slowly trying to build a database of this type of information.

Yes, the heating coil is a heat reclaim coil from the racks we do use that for reheat in dehumidification mode. Reclaim is also used to heat the store in the winter time.
 
#46 · (Edited)
knocking an inch off of that total static by cleaning the coil COULD knock say 8 Hp of load off of that blower motor. If it was not a reclaim coil, maybe you could of just yanked it and cleaned it.

As far as operating costs go, this could be a similar savings to shutting off a 7.5 ton system that ran steady.

Probably lose a good degree of fan reheat though

I do not recall Lau having airfoil fans, not saying they don't, but then with the Lau catalog you should be able to reverse engineer a lot of forward curved stuff

Back in the day, I did a few custom units for safeways with the reclaim coils. The reclaim pretty much heated the store until it got sub-arctic outside, then we had about a million btu gordon piatt burner
 
#47 ·
i would agree about the savings if it were ran by static pressure!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but the vfd is controlled by discharge air which is very cold due to blocked coils and if the vfd is controlled by air temp then the drive is using less horsepower . once you clean the coils the drive will run at a higher frequency

and ofcourse use more power

if it was trying to develope 1.5" wc duct static it would be running balls to the wall to overcome the pressure drop across the restricted coils........

you gotta get rid of that krapp and run the fan by static!!!!!!!!!!!


Carnak said:
knocking an inch off of that total static by cleaning the coil COULD knock say 8 Hp of load off of that blower motor. If it was not a reclaim coil, maybe you could of just yanked it and cleaned it.
As far as operating costs go, this could be a similar savings to shutting off a 7.5 ton system that ran steady.

Probably lose a good degree of fan reheat though

I do not recall Lau having airfoil fans, not saying they don't, but then with the Lau catalog you should be able to reverse engineer a lot of forward curved stuff

Back in the day, I did a few custom units for safeways with the reclaim coils. The reclaim pretty much heated the store until it got sub-arctic outside, then we had about a million btu gordon piatt burner
Click to expand...
 
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#48 ·
supertek65 said:
and ofcourse use more power
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you're right dickweed :) lol I remember you took exception to that one before - he only has that motor half loaded right now because the air is choked down by the plugged reclaim coil. I was thinking he bypassed the VFD, had it up to 60 Hz and had the motor about fully loaded.

His comments on temp drop make it sound like air flow is at about 80% of what is nominal.

I think he would end up with 25% more air flowing at slightly less total static pressure so the amps could shoot right back up. my bad.
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
Carnak said:
you're right dickweed :) lol I remember you took exception to that one before - he only has that motor half loaded right now because the air is choked down by the plugged reclaim coil. I was thinking he bypassed the VFD, had it up to 60 Hz and had the motor about fully loaded.

His comments on temp drop make it sound like air flow is at about 80% of what is nominal.

I think he would end up with 25% more air flowing at slightly less total static pressure so the amps could shoot right back up. my bad.
Click to expand...
If I didn't mention it before, I did, at one time, have amperages up around 90 amps. Not where I'd like to see them given where most other units I service run as far as blower amperage, but a damn sight better than what I'm getting now.
 
#50 ·
jpsmith1cm said:
If I didn't mention it before, I did, at one time, have amperages up around 90 amps. Not where I'd like to see them given where most other units I service run as far as blower amperage, but a damn sight better than what I'm getting now.
Click to expand...
You mentioned the 90 Amps before.

What I had in my mind was that you had it wound up to get the right amount of air moving, so if you cleaned that coil it would not have to work so hard to move the same amount of air.

Its choked and low on air, so when you get it moving more air, its going to use more power.
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Carnak said:
You mentioned the 90 Amps before.

What I had in my mind was that you had it wound up to get the right amount of air moving, so if you cleaned that coil it would not have to work so hard to move the same amount of air.

Its choked and low on air, so when you get it moving more air, its going to use more power.
Click to expand...
Sounds like my 'prentice is going to have a long and dirty night ahead of him next week.

:nopity:
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
I do not recall Lau having airfoil fans, not saying they don't, but then with the Lau catalog you should be able to reverse engineer a lot of forward curved stuff

Back in the day, I did a few custom units for safeways with the reclaim coils. The reclaim pretty much heated the store until it got sub-arctic outside, then we had about a million btu gordon piatt burner
Click to expand...
Jeez. Now I gotta learn to ID the type of blower before I even start looking for performance data.

Yeah, a well designed store with a well-designed heat reclaim setup will keep a store nice and warm for, basically, nothing, once the equipment is installed. Sad to see the heat reclaim coils disappearing from the stores.
 
#55 ·
that's SUPERDICKWEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:deadhorse:

Carnak said:
you're right dickweed :) lol I remember you took exception to that one before - he only has that motor half loaded right now because the air is choked down by the plugged reclaim coil. I was thinking he bypassed the VFD, had it up to 60 Hz and had the motor about fully loaded.

His comments on temp drop make it sound like air flow is at about 80% of what is nominal.

I think he would end up with 25% more air flowing at slightly less total static pressure so the amps could shoot right back up. my bad.
Click to expand...
 
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