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ferky

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I am one of those guys that went and bought a large, poorly built McMansion; feel free to mock me. It's 8 years old, 5,000+ square feet, looks great, passed all necessary inspections, but it's really crap and the builder has since been acquired by a larger company that ultimately declared bankruptcy. I've been in the house for less than 2 years and already have experienced moderately bad stucco, window, flashing, and water entry problems with limited insurance/legal recourse, but let's talk HVAC:

I have 2 separate split Carrier systems. The larger system adequately heats/cools the main floor and finished basement. The other, smaller system, is the problem. Both interior systems were installed side-by-side in the basement, but I have since learned that the smaller system should have been installed in the attic (which is now all but inaccessible). The runs to the top floor are so long that even with a fully charged AC, clean filter and the system on Hi, the air does not move with much force or effect by the time it reaches the upstairs bedrooms. Return vents upstairs are not strong enough to hold a simple tissue against the vent. To add to the upstairs cooling problem, the house is not shaded and gets beaten by direct sunlight most of the day. Even with the shades down and AC on, the MBR will often see the low 80s, and will only cool once the sun goes down. And this is with the system running nearly all day and all night.

Last year, my first summer in the house, I had a technician charge the system and make sure that all ducts were open and flowing the maximum amount of air. He confirmed that everything was set up as good as possible, but we still had a very warm upstairs all summer. This past weekend we lost all cooling upstairs and I found a large amount of water dripping out of the box that houses the interior coils. A different tech found 0 lbs of coolant in the coils, and informed me that I had a massive leak and my only options were replacing the cools or the entire system.

I have a $ quote for a new coil (P&L), but I am now considering a bigger, more drastic fix. Since the system has to run so hard for so long and it can't even keep up with the sun, I'm worried that a new coil is simply a bandaid, and at any time I will burn out the compressor and/or furnace blower. I have 3 companies coming out in the next 2 days to check out the system, make recommendations and offer quotes, but I am trying to educate myself enough to speak to them intelligently.

First, I have no airflow calculations nor the means to perform them. Is it wrong for me to assume that the estimators will do these calculations for themselves? Second, assuming that the builder actually installed the correct sized unit for the upstairs, where does that leave me? I always assumed that I just need a furnace with a bigger blower to solve my problem, but will it? Will a larger furnace make up for the long run, or will I need booster(s) or a more radical change? How can I know if the problem isn't the ductwork instead? Will a reputable company test the ductwork or will they just try to sell me bigger, better equipment? I try to educate myself before doing something that leaves me vulnerable to being taken advantage of (other than that one time when I bought a McMansion), but HVAC is a completely foreign world to me.

I sincerely appreciate any assistance anyone is willing to offer.
 
....This past weekend we lost all cooling upstairs and I found a large amount of water dripping out of the box that houses the interior coils. A different tech found 0 lbs of coolant in the coils, and informed me that I had a massive leak....

You can't have a large amount of water AND 0 psi in the system. (assumung that's the resting state pressure)

Even though the system is not cooling, the airflow can still be verified with the existing furnace.

If the ductwork is undersized then a larger fan won't help much.

With all that ductwork, it's possible that something has come loose internally thus blocking airflow.

Your first step is to get a company to verify/troubleshoot the present airflow.

FYI; We are not allowed to discuss prices on the open forum.
 
It would be impossible to advise you without beeing there to evaluate the system and home. If your problem truly is because of the long duct runs, then relocating the furnace (if feasible) may be the better option. Any competent contractor should be able to evaluate the situation and make a recommendation.
 
Usually when folks post their location (city/state), someone in the area will post and offer services.

Not all HVAC guys/gals understand airflow, loads, ducts, and sizing. Better to interview until you find a few that do. Ask them HOW they will determine these things. If they do not say: ACCA manual J; D; S... move on to the next.

When you find a few that do understand how to determine these things, then you can start to resolve your issues... And expect it to cost some serious $$$... Not allowed to quote, but this will not be a bandaid repair.
 
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Usually when folks post their location (city/state), someone in the area will post and offer services.

Not all HVAC guys/gals understand airflow, loads, ducts, and sizing. Better to interview until you find a few that do. Ask them HOW they will determine these things. If they do not say: ACCA manual J; D; S... move on to the next.

When you find a few that do understand how to determine these things, then you can start to resolve your issues... And expect it to cost some serious $$$... Not allowed to quote, but this will not be a bandaid repair.
Speculation. You don't have to be an engineer to go check the existing airflow.
He has a leak (I think). It's easy to mistake under size with undercharged.
 
Speculation. You don't have to be an engineer to go check the existing airflow. Let's not get carried away.

He has a leak (I think). It's easy to mistake under size with undercharged.
I agree that a refrigeration leak can cause a system to not cool... However: I have seen enough homes to know it is the exception to the rule when a system has proper ductwork. It is almost ALWAYS too small.

I just 'resurrected' 3 systems in a McMansion last week (foreclosure bought by a young couple). The equipment was an off brand, poorly installed. The ductwork was grossly undersized. This fall, we will start replacing systems one at a time, with proper ductowrk.

If the OP finds it is only a capacity problem (low refrigerant), and there is adequate ductwork and airflow, then I am happy for them! It would be the exception to the norm in my area though.
 
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Bottom line: if you're not getting enough air delivered to and removed from each room upstairs to offset the heat being added to the rooms from the sun baking the crap out of your McMansion, you won't be comfortable upstairs, period.

Additionally, even if you get enough air into and out of each upstairs room, your a/c needs to have enough mojo to remove that heat and dump it back outdoors where it belongs.

So, two things. Get enough air into and out of each room, and be sure the a/c has enough cooling capacity to dump the heat outdoors.

I can't see your system from here, but from your description it sounds like long duct runs are choking the system.

What makes you say the attic is inaccessible?

Duct air boosters DO NOT WORK. Band aids usually do not work.

It does not take a degree in mechanical engineering for a savvy a/c tech to determine if enough air is being delivered to each room, or if the system is operating anywhere near rated capacity, or if the proper amount of air is moving through the cooling coil.

My experience with many McMansions...they're architectural wonders but structural nightmares for mechanical systems. A great deal of thought went into aesthetics but little for where ducts and air handlers and water heaters and all the rest need to go. I'm probably preaching to the choir here, yes? :)

I would re-examine the attic availability, and if that's still impossible, many McMansions have interior ceilings upstairs much taller than they really need to be...it can be lowered and ducting added, which in the long run is much better than an upstairs air handler in the basement or the entire shebang up in the attic.
 
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I agree that a refrigeration leak can cause a system to not cool... However: I have seen enough homes to know it is the exception to the rule when a system has proper ductwork. It is almost ALWAYS too small.

I just 'resurrected' 3 systems in a McMansion last week (foreclosure bought by a young couple). The equipment was an off brand, poorly installed. The ductwork was grossly undersized. This fall, we will start replacing systems one at a time, with proper ductowrk.

If the OP finds it is only a capacity problem (low refrigerant), and there is adequate ductwork and airflow, then I am happy for them! It would be the exception to the norm in my area though.
I hear you. I just don't want to unduly intimidate the OP. Plenty of time for that later..:whistle:
 
Your coil problem sounds like it froze because of lack of airflow. Consider the following:
Tie the 2nd floor unit return to the 1st floor unit to 'marry' the return and draw from the first floor with the shortest, simplest, duct run.
This may solve your problem because your system delievers air when it sucks and blows. Reduce the suck, more fan pressure available for blow!
If you still have problems delivering the air then you will have to dig a lot deeper. Look for disconnected ducts although this is probably not the problem since we think it froze up from the lack of airflow. If you feel you absolutely need to get the return air back from the 2nd floor you could look at installing a fan on the 2nd to blow it back to the common return plenum. Maybe a t stat controlled fan could help reduce the stack effect. You just have to make sure you have a way for that air on the second floor to get back to a unit with a closed door. Can't get air to go into a room if it can't get out! Besides all the other Building Science problems caused by a house with all those different pressures
 
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ou don't have to take the word of any of the contractors.There is a method called a manuel "J" which will tell you exactly what size unit you need and then there is a manuel "D" that will tell you exactly what kind of duct system you need to get the conditioned air into your house space effiently .These manuels take time to do and you will most likely be charged for them but it takes all the guesswork out and you and the contractor know exactly what you need.Considering that you will have to pay to run your new equipment and you will have to depend on it for comfort for the next 15-20 years it will be money well worth it.
You have a 5000 square foot house,I can't believe you can't make a small room or a large closet availiable for equipmentb installation.
If you post back to me don't be telling me how important every square foot is because when everything is taken into account comfort is way way more important.
If you really do have a leak in your system then a blind man should be able to find the great big oil spot right where the leak is but the better solution is to move the equipment upstairs maybe run the ductwork in the attic.
If the manuel "J" says that the size you have is the size you should have then all you need do is move the unit.
 
I would be looking for a way to get all that ductwork sealed, there are companies that can seal it through the inside, and seal all the boots to the walls floors, whatever. Can they get dampers in the branch runs? You need the right size system and you need the ductwork sealed and balanced.
 
Ha. I've never heard the term before this thread. This absolutely cracks me up. Now I know what to call them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion
http://www.slate.com/id/2133029/slideshow/2133420/fs/0//entry/2133416/
There's McMansions everywhere around here, Wikipedia nailed it on the description too, there so gross and taseless and oversized on the outside, and they SMOOSH them all together. God only knows how hellacious those places get in the summer.:argue:
 
Another option: Install a ductless system in the master bedroom. That way you have independent control of that room -you've added a zone. By eliminating the master from the smaller unit, more air may be forced to the other rooms from the smaller system.

Mark
 
Ferky, It sounds like you bought one of the crappy McMansions here in Phoenix Arizona! I'm so sorry you have to go through this, but I see it a lot down here and I suggest you go with a Mini Split system! This way you don't have ductwork issues to deal with and you're not repairing a garbage builders special with problems.

There is a good reason for buying an older home and making upgrades.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 ·
Many thanks everyone for all of the helpful posts. I'm trying to digest all of the advice that everyone is giving.

I met with the first company this morning and tried to ask lots of questions to get as much info as possible on my system. First, he informed me that the upstairs system is only 2.5 tons whereas the downstairs system is 3.5 tons. In his opinion, the 2.5 is undersized and the 3.5 may be a tad oversized. Based on the ductwork that he was able to view, he believes that the ducts are appropriately sized and my problem stems from the fact that the runs are too long for effecient pushing and pulling of air from the basement to the top floor. This, coupled with the fact that the unit is a bit small and I have no attic fans is making it very difficult to keep the top floor cool.

I did question him on the possibility of a blockage and/or the need for him to run some tests. He did not believe that a blockage was likely and he was firm in his belief that 6 tons was sufficient for the house, but the 2.5/3.5 split was a major factor. In short, he wants to quote me several options without running any tests. How big of a red flag should this be? In hindsight, I guess I should have specifically mentioned 'manuel J or D' in order to let him know that I was doing my research, but I opted instead to be the know-nothing homeowner.

In short, he had a few recommendations ranging from "may help" to "major undertaking that will absolutely solve the problem." He will be quoting on these options.

Option 1 - replace the coil, install one or more attic fans to help with airflow and take some of the load off the unit. - may help

Option 2 - replace the entire AC/furnace with an efficient 3 ton system and also install one or more attic fans. For some reason that I didn't fully understand, I can't go bigger than 3 tons, but it should improve the airflow. Add an attic fan and we could be in good shape. - will help

Option 3 - disconnect the AC from the system and use it for heat only (we have no problem staying warm upstairs in the winter). Install an AC-only system in the attic with all of the requisite ductwork. Obviously this is the most costly and intrusive option. - will absolutely solve the problem

I am meeting with a different company tonight and it will be interesting to hear what they have to say versus the guy I just met with.

Thoughts?
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
BTW - I live in a suburb of Philadelphia.

Gus-Herb94 - while most of the things said about McMansions are spot on, I don't agree with the "tasteless" or "crammed together" description. The homes in my development are all on 3/4 of an acre or more and they are lovely and understated. IMO, perfect to look at, just don't buy one!

crmont - the thinking behind the cause of the leak is that the coil froze either due to inadequate airflow or a small leak. The frozen, pressurized coil eventually cracked, dumping out all of the coolant. The water that followed was a mixture of melting ice and condensation. Is this plausible?

genduct and bostonMark - I want so badly to understand what you are telling me, but I'm missing it. I don't know what a mini-split or ductless system is or how it would help. I've read Genduct's post a few times, but I'm just not understanding the recommendation. Forgive this poor desk-jockey.

Also, the first guy I spoke to agreed that duct boosters don't do much.

Finally, my understanding is that most HVAC companies don't install attic fans and that I need a roofer. Does anyone have any recommendations for the Philly suburbs? Also, does anyone have any experience with the solar powered attic fans? I like the idea of not needing an electrician to make a run to the breaker box in the basement and I love the idea of actually buying something truly "green."
 
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