A furnace guy came to my house last night and we had a discussion about multi-stage and modulating furnaces. He said that ALL the ECM motors on the high end furnaces from Carrier, Trane, York etc are all made by GE and are exactly the same. Is this true?
DarthBane
All ECM motors made by GE?
DarthBane
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Joined 2010
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A furnace guy came to my house last night and we had a discussion about multi-stage and modulating furnaces. He said that ALL the ECM motors on the high end furnaces from Carrier, Trane, York etc are all made by GE and are exactly the same. Is this true?
4,745 posts
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Joined 2007
I've only seen ones made by GE. I've never seen any other manufacturer. I've been told by the different manufacturers that they are specially made for that company and there are slight nuances. Whether that is true or not, I do not know. I've never talked to anybody from GE about it.
129 posts
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Joined 2009
GE sold the division. They licensed their name to the new owners, Regal Beloit, for a specified number of years. GE themselves no longer manufactures the ECM motors.
94 posts
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Joined 2004
Yes, Emerson also makes ECM motors.
I think this is the website link you may be looking for:
http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US...-US/products/motors/variable_speed_ecm/rescue_ecotech/Pages/rescue_ecotech.aspx
I think this is the website link you may be looking for:
http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US...-US/products/motors/variable_speed_ecm/rescue_ecotech/Pages/rescue_ecotech.aspx
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
They are made by the same company.
But, not all companies use the same version of it. Higher end Carriers use the 3.0 version.
Many other companies are using the 2.3, and 2.5 version.
But, not all companies use the same version of it. Higher end Carriers use the 3.0 version.
Many other companies are using the 2.3, and 2.5 version.
32,377 posts
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Joined 2000
Regal-Beloit calls their motors Genteq (not to be confused with Roboteq) now days.
Nordyne G7 gas furnaces use Broad Ocean ECMs. Possible that their Mod might have a Panasonic motor too from what I Read.
Nordyne G7 gas furnaces use Broad Ocean ECMs. Possible that their Mod might have a Panasonic motor too from what I Read.
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
Is that an ECM, or an ICM motor?Nordyne G7 gas furnaces use Broad Ocean ECMs. Possible that their Mod might have a Panasonic motor too from what I Read.
32,377 posts
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Joined 2000
Good question. The motor can be fixed speed like an X13 or full variable speed depending upon which board is in the furnace. No, the tech data sheets says ECM. Brushless DC motor.
60 posts
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Joined 2009
Have any one of you ever tried to repair a ECM motor? Mine is working fine but is there parts that go bad in them that are common?
1,411 posts
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Joined 2008
There is an ECM guru on another DIY site that seems to know how to fix them, and pretty cheaply too.
523 posts
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Joined 2009
Most motor manufactures make a variable speed motor of some sort. In furnaces/air handlers/oil furnaces you'll see GE motors. I've never ran into anything else on the residential side of HVAC, which doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
These motors are VERY expensive to replace. Luckily if installed properly they RARELY go bad. The GE 3.0 that you'll find in high end Lennox, Carrier, Etc. Will even shut itself off vs trying to move more air then its capable of moving.
Good air filtration is nice too. And no, not a home depot 3m filter, an actual air cleaner. It will minimize motor failure due to dirt/debris and also keep everything operating efficiently.
To go one step further, a lot of manufactures will share all sorts of parts. Motors, contactors, compressors, capacitors, etc. Only on the fancier stuff will you start finding parts design for that particular piece of equipment.
And if you are basing a purchase decision off equipment and the parts they use then dont. Base the decision off the company thats going to be installing said piece of equipment.
These motors are VERY expensive to replace. Luckily if installed properly they RARELY go bad. The GE 3.0 that you'll find in high end Lennox, Carrier, Etc. Will even shut itself off vs trying to move more air then its capable of moving.
Good air filtration is nice too. And no, not a home depot 3m filter, an actual air cleaner. It will minimize motor failure due to dirt/debris and also keep everything operating efficiently.
To go one step further, a lot of manufactures will share all sorts of parts. Motors, contactors, compressors, capacitors, etc. Only on the fancier stuff will you start finding parts design for that particular piece of equipment.
And if you are basing a purchase decision off equipment and the parts they use then dont. Base the decision off the company thats going to be installing said piece of equipment.
60 posts
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Joined 2009
Well that makes sense. Is the module able to be repaired or is it replace only type of thing? I know in the field you really don't have time to trouble shoot what part is bad and find a replacement, I know that some things are put in epoxy so the parts can not be replaced is this the case?
523 posts
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Joined 2009
Anything is possible, if it was built then someone with the right expertise can rebuild it. However paying the labor rate for a person with this sort of expertise will probably outweigh just having the part replaced.
I've soldered burned connections on control boards in a pinch. I've even solder the molex connector onto a variable speed controller that the solder joints just broke loose. However I only do this when I absolutely have too, Friday night, supply houses closed for the weekend, 5 degrees outside, super friendly family with kids and elderly people. That sort of thing. So even if you found someone that COULD do it, its a crap shoot whether they would or not.
I found, from Lennox at least. I can get the module OR I can get the motor AND module. Not just the motor for some reason. I've only found one bad motor before though, its usually the module and sometimes the controller. And these failures have always been related to high static (trying to move more air then you should be/oversized)
I've soldered burned connections on control boards in a pinch. I've even solder the molex connector onto a variable speed controller that the solder joints just broke loose. However I only do this when I absolutely have too, Friday night, supply houses closed for the weekend, 5 degrees outside, super friendly family with kids and elderly people. That sort of thing. So even if you found someone that COULD do it, its a crap shoot whether they would or not.
I found, from Lennox at least. I can get the module OR I can get the motor AND module. Not just the motor for some reason. I've only found one bad motor before though, its usually the module and sometimes the controller. And these failures have always been related to high static (trying to move more air then you should be/oversized)
32 posts
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Joined 2010
All manufacturers should be able to sell you the motor or the control module separately. Troubleshooting guides are available online at http://www.thedealertoolbox.com
We do not recommend that anyone repair the control modules, but rather buy a new unit.
Note that the control module should be purchased from the manufacturer as each manufacturer has their own custom settings. So for example, a 2.3 module from Rheem cannot be used on a 2.3 motor for a Trane system.
Regal Beloit purchased the GE HVAC motors division and were given the rights to use the GE name for a period of time. Last year, we introduced the Genteq brand to replace the GE name. So Genteq produces ECM motors for the majority of the OEM's using the following products:
Genteq ECM 3.0 - communicating motor
Genteq ECM 2.3 - thermostat controlled
Genteq X13 - constant torque
Genteq Evergreen IM & AH- aftermarket replacement ECM motor
Genteq 142R - constant speed outdoor condenser
Older ECM product lines:
GE ECM 142
GE ECM 2.5
GE ECM 2.0
GE ECM 1.0
In the Commercial Refrigeration market, we also offer the following ECM motors through our Morrill Motors company:
Morrill Arktic SSC
Morrill Arktic/ICE 59
Morrill Arktic/ICE 142
We do not recommend that anyone repair the control modules, but rather buy a new unit.
Note that the control module should be purchased from the manufacturer as each manufacturer has their own custom settings. So for example, a 2.3 module from Rheem cannot be used on a 2.3 motor for a Trane system.
Regal Beloit purchased the GE HVAC motors division and were given the rights to use the GE name for a period of time. Last year, we introduced the Genteq brand to replace the GE name. So Genteq produces ECM motors for the majority of the OEM's using the following products:
Genteq ECM 3.0 - communicating motor
Genteq ECM 2.3 - thermostat controlled
Genteq X13 - constant torque
Genteq Evergreen IM & AH- aftermarket replacement ECM motor
Genteq 142R - constant speed outdoor condenser
Older ECM product lines:
GE ECM 142
GE ECM 2.5
GE ECM 2.0
GE ECM 1.0
In the Commercial Refrigeration market, we also offer the following ECM motors through our Morrill Motors company:
Morrill Arktic SSC
Morrill Arktic/ICE 59
Morrill Arktic/ICE 142
58 posts
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Joined 2008
Genteq,
I have a Luxaire modulating furnace installed in 2007 with, presumably, a GE ECM. One of the things I don't understand about these motors is the way they start up. It is common for mine to rumble like thunder, sometimes quite loud and long (maybe 10 seconds), during startup. I have been told and have read that "they all do that", and they are just trying to decide which direction to run. I just find it hard to believe that with all the really good engineering of products out there, that this condition is apparently so prevalent.
If what I have heard/read is right, is there a fix for it yet? If not, when?
Thanks,
Dave
I have a Luxaire modulating furnace installed in 2007 with, presumably, a GE ECM. One of the things I don't understand about these motors is the way they start up. It is common for mine to rumble like thunder, sometimes quite loud and long (maybe 10 seconds), during startup. I have been told and have read that "they all do that", and they are just trying to decide which direction to run. I just find it hard to believe that with all the really good engineering of products out there, that this condition is apparently so prevalent.
If what I have heard/read is right, is there a fix for it yet? If not, when?
Thanks,
Dave
1,411 posts
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Joined 2008
Have a York DFHP installed in 7/2009 that took longer than that to decide which way to go. Had the HP control board replaced and it pretty much stopped that during the heating season although I did notice it did a bit of a dance recently. I too find it hard to believe that a software controlled device can't make a more positive decision on how to rotate a fan.... One of the things I don't understand about these motors is the way they start up. It is common for mine to rumble like thunder, sometimes quite loud and long (maybe 10 seconds), during startup. I have been told and have read that "they all do that", and they are just trying to decide which direction to run. I just find it hard to believe that with all the really good engineering of products out there, that this condition is apparently so prevalent.
...
58 posts
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Joined 2008
Genteq,
I don't know for sure just what motor it is, but it is what came from the factory and is part of the original installation. The model number of the furnace is (Z)FL9C060B12DH11A per the warranty registration, if that helps. If you need the serial number, I can provide that,too. The furnace is installed in a down flow configuration.
By the way, the motor assembly was replaced shortly after installation because the dealer didn't think it was right. It behaved like the original. Also, the module at the back of the motor was replaced after that. That did not make any difference, either. The board was replaced, as well (maybe more than once). And, no that did not change things as far as the rumble is concerned. The rumble behavior has been constant from the beginning to now, although it was bad enough at one point to vibrate the kitchen cabinets on the other side of the wall from the garage where the furnace is--but that has not been a recent problem.
Dave
I don't know for sure just what motor it is, but it is what came from the factory and is part of the original installation. The model number of the furnace is (Z)FL9C060B12DH11A per the warranty registration, if that helps. If you need the serial number, I can provide that,too. The furnace is installed in a down flow configuration.
By the way, the motor assembly was replaced shortly after installation because the dealer didn't think it was right. It behaved like the original. Also, the module at the back of the motor was replaced after that. That did not make any difference, either. The board was replaced, as well (maybe more than once). And, no that did not change things as far as the rumble is concerned. The rumble behavior has been constant from the beginning to now, although it was bad enough at one point to vibrate the kitchen cabinets on the other side of the wall from the garage where the furnace is--but that has not been a recent problem.
Dave
32 posts
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Joined 2010
Without getting too technical, the ECM motor detects the position of the rotor without any sensors. So, in order for it to start, the motor will actually "rock" itself and then ramp up into the right direction.
The issues that we typically see with a noisy start is related to the mounting system. So the thing to check is to make sure that everything that supports the motor to the blower housing is as tight as possible (belly band down to the legs on the blower section to even the grommets). If anything is loose, it will cause the motor to have a more difficult time to start.
The issues that we typically see with a noisy start is related to the mounting system. So the thing to check is to make sure that everything that supports the motor to the blower housing is as tight as possible (belly band down to the legs on the blower section to even the grommets). If anything is loose, it will cause the motor to have a more difficult time to start.
1,411 posts
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Joined 2008
Genteq, thanks for the info. I am certainly not a electrical engineer or electrician, but I recall somebody saying that there are, is it, discrete magnets that have to be positioned to allow (efficient?) acceleration of the motor in the right direction. Any of that sound even remotely correct?Without getting too technical, the ECM motor detects the position of the rotor without any sensors. So, in order for it to start, the motor will actually "rock" itself and then ramp up into the right direction.
...
Any kind of really technical explanation will go over this guy's head. Heck, I still can't believe that heat pumps work.
58 posts
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Joined 2008
Thanks, Genteq
So would it be too difficult, expensive, etc. to install sensors so that the rocking did not have to occur and the motor could start in the right direction without the "commotion" prelude?
Dave
So would it be too difficult, expensive, etc. to install sensors so that the rocking did not have to occur and the motor could start in the right direction without the "commotion" prelude?
Dave
32 posts
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Joined 2010
We feel that the sensorless position is the way to go in these motors. In a properly designed and installed mounting system, we should have no issues.
With each new product that we have introduced, we have further improved the start method of the ECM motors.
With each new product that we have introduced, we have further improved the start method of the ECM motors.
58 posts
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Joined 2008
You seem to be suggesting that Luxaire (and, presumably) York, Coleman, etc. have an inadequately constructed mounting system that is the source of the problem that I (and, perhaps Jerryd_2008) are experiencing.
But, if the mounting system (or the looseness of that system) is the problem, why is it not consistent? There are times when the ECM makes no noise (as detected from inside the living area) whereas at other times it sounds like it will tear the wall down?
Can any of the improved start methods on your products be retrofitted to existing ECMs?
But, if the mounting system (or the looseness of that system) is the problem, why is it not consistent? There are times when the ECM makes no noise (as detected from inside the living area) whereas at other times it sounds like it will tear the wall down?
Can any of the improved start methods on your products be retrofitted to existing ECMs?
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
Other brands have the same noise.You seem to be suggesting that Luxaire (and, presumably) York, Coleman, etc. have an inadequately constructed mounting system that is the source of the problem that I (and, perhaps Jerryd_2008) are experiencing.
Several threads have been posted by people asking about the noise from their furnace, and they were different brands.
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
The problem is, its not a problem in the vast majority of installs. And the contractor should check the application before recommending one.
I have VS blowers in attic installs, garage installs, basement install, etc.
I avoid them in applications where the return is either a straight shot to the grille, or too short, to allow for sound attenuation(had to learn the hard way).
Too late now. But, you would have been much better off with the YM9M. The ball bearing motor doesn't make any noise like the ECM motor does. And its speed is regulated by triacs. Won't give you the slow ramp up in cooling like an ECM, but still can be slowed to remove humidity. And in heat works just as good as the ECM for temp rise control.
I have VS blowers in attic installs, garage installs, basement install, etc.
I avoid them in applications where the return is either a straight shot to the grille, or too short, to allow for sound attenuation(had to learn the hard way).
Too late now. But, you would have been much better off with the YM9M. The ball bearing motor doesn't make any noise like the ECM motor does. And its speed is regulated by triacs. Won't give you the slow ramp up in cooling like an ECM, but still can be slowed to remove humidity. And in heat works just as good as the ECM for temp rise control.
58 posts
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Joined 2008
Beenthere,
My return plenum goes straight above the furnace to the attic where the connected flex returns are spread out to various places in the attic, the shortest of which is more than 10 feet. Are you considering this "short"?
I'm not hearing any noise from the return at the grilles in the living area.
When I was doing my looking for new HVAC systems in early 2007, no one was encouraging me to buy a unit with a PSC motor. Oh, well--speaking of learning the hard way...
Genteq,
Thanks for the clarification. What is your response to my question "Can any of the improved start methods on your products be retrofitted to existing ECMs?"
My return plenum goes straight above the furnace to the attic where the connected flex returns are spread out to various places in the attic, the shortest of which is more than 10 feet. Are you considering this "short"?
I'm not hearing any noise from the return at the grilles in the living area.
When I was doing my looking for new HVAC systems in early 2007, no one was encouraging me to buy a unit with a PSC motor. Oh, well--speaking of learning the hard way...
Genteq,
Thanks for the clarification. What is your response to my question "Can any of the improved start methods on your products be retrofitted to existing ECMs?"
58 posts
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Joined 2008
The furnace is in the garage and transmitts the sound though the wall to the kitchen, dining room, and living room--all of which border the garage. When it really "acts up" we can easily hear it anywhere in the living area.
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
Is the furnace itself touching the walls.
Or is it transmitting from a base that the furnace is on.
Or is it transmitting from a base that the furnace is on.
32 posts
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Joined 2010
Thanks for the clarification. What is your response to my question "Can any of the improved start methods on your products be retrofitted to existing ECMs?"
Unfortunately not, as when we introduced our X13, ECM 3.0, ECM 142R, we were able to use a faster processor to help with the start routine. In order to do that for the ECM 2.3, it will require a complete redesign of the electronics.
In our experience over 25 years in providing ECM motors to the industry, the issue of noise is very complicated as there are so many variables that are involved: blower housing, furnace cabinet, internal static of the furnace cabinet, filter, duct work, home, etc. The motor/blower tends to get the blame as it is the prime mover of air. 9 times out of 10, it is more of a system interaction vs. a motor noise issue. We've had a share of motor driven noise, but we feel we have addressed these over the years.
Our master trainer checked with a long time York representative, and he did not know of any issues with that particular furnace line.
Unfortunately not, as when we introduced our X13, ECM 3.0, ECM 142R, we were able to use a faster processor to help with the start routine. In order to do that for the ECM 2.3, it will require a complete redesign of the electronics.
In our experience over 25 years in providing ECM motors to the industry, the issue of noise is very complicated as there are so many variables that are involved: blower housing, furnace cabinet, internal static of the furnace cabinet, filter, duct work, home, etc. The motor/blower tends to get the blame as it is the prime mover of air. 9 times out of 10, it is more of a system interaction vs. a motor noise issue. We've had a share of motor driven noise, but we feel we have addressed these over the years.
Our master trainer checked with a long time York representative, and he did not know of any issues with that particular furnace line.
58 posts
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Joined 2008
Well, I'm not in a position to fund a redesign of the ECM 2.3, but you bring up some interesting points, and I will presume you are confining your answer, above, to the area of my initial question regarding startup rumble, not all noise issues regarding the ECM. And regarding the question to York, I will presume the question and response pertain only to the ECM used in the 2007 era modulating furnaces.Unfortunately not, as when we introduced our X13, ECM 3.0, ECM 142R, we were able to use a faster processor to help with the start routine. In order to do that for the ECM 2.3, it will require a complete redesign of the electronics.
In our experience over 25 years in providing ECM motors to the industry, the issue of noise is very complicated as there are so many variables that are involved: blower housing, furnace cabinet, internal static of the furnace cabinet, filter, duct work, home, etc. The motor/blower tends to get the blame as it is the prime mover of air. 9 times out of 10, it is more of a system interaction vs. a motor noise issue. We've had a share of motor driven noise, but we feel we have addressed these over the years.
Our master trainer checked with a long time York representative, and he did not know of any issues with that particular furnace line.
You stated earlier that you know of no issues with York, Luxaire, Coleman, etc., so I guess that eliminates the blower housing and furnace cabinet.
Internal static of the furnace cabinet is somewhat of a surprise, since I did not think there would be enough static to interfere with the ECM startup from a standstill. How much static in that situation is too much? In that same line, how does the filter, ductwork, and home affect the startup? After the startup, the blower runs smoothly.
58 posts
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Joined 2008
The furnace does not touch the walls. The rumble/thunder sound, when I happen to be in the garage when it occurs, seems to come from the furance cabinet--and I can feel it vibrate--next to where the blower assembly is located (near the top). When in the living area, it seems to come from the walls adjacent to the garage (near the corner where the furnace is if in the kitchen/dining room, from the living room wall if in the living room). The walls are standard 2x4 stud wall construction insulated with fiberglass.
78,170 posts
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Joined 2004
The vibration is starting in the blower compartment.
And being transferred to the base that the furnace is supported by.
And being transferred to the base that the furnace is supported by.
1,411 posts
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Joined 2008
Genteq, that's about all this non-electrical type needs to know. Thanks.
Just to risk further embarrassment, it sounds a bit like the way they energize magnets in front of monorail type trains, kind of sucking the train along then killing the magnets behind.
But it does sound like it should not take long, unlike the 15-20 seconds of jitter on the previous HP control board, to get the fan going in the right direction. I would guess that it only takes a fraction of a rotation to decide if the fan is moving correctly, right?
Just to risk further embarrassment, it sounds a bit like the way they energize magnets in front of monorail type trains, kind of sucking the train along then killing the magnets behind.
But it does sound like it should not take long, unlike the 15-20 seconds of jitter on the previous HP control board, to get the fan going in the right direction. I would guess that it only takes a fraction of a rotation to decide if the fan is moving correctly, right?
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