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McMurdo

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
We recently replaced our 30 year old Trane furnace/compressor with the variable speed XV20i heat pump, variable speed air handler (P-series modular blower), Trane evaporative coil and digital thermostat. The bid showed "Trane XV20i 4 Ton Condenser" and "Trane Evaporative Coil".

When I sent in the rebate application to our city, I was told that the rebate was for a 5 ton heat pump. Sure enough, I looked at the model numbers on the invoice and the installation was for a 5 ton condenser and 5 ton cased coil unit. I called and spoke to the person who sold us the unit, and he said something along the lines that this unit offered the highest SEER rating, and that since it was all variable speed the size (tonnage) was not too large for our house. Most of his comments went over my head, and after speaking in circles I finally ended the call amicably and apologized for my inability to understand the reason for the switch.

Our house is two level, 2000 square foot in inland Southern California. Winter temperatures rarely fall below 40F but summers can reach 105 for days on end. We have a mini-split system for the upstairs bedrooms because our duct system was never adequate to cool those rooms sufficiently. The company we hired has been in business for decades and is very highly regarded but I am still confused about why a 5 ton system was substituted for the 4 ton system, and how that could provide a higher SEER. I would mostly like reassurance that the capacity of the system is not too large for our house. Does fully variable speed really eliminate the problem of over-sizing the system?
 
Maybe instead of losing the job they had access to a 5 ton system and where hoping you would not notice the difference? Worst case they should have consulted with you prior to the install or gave you options to say something like we are having trouble getting the 4 ton package. What was the reason given you for installing a larger system than what the contract says and them not telling you upfront?

What system do you have now, a Heat Pump and Air Handler? A Heat Pump and a cased coil and a new furnace?

What was the AHRI number they gave you for the 5 ton, and what is each piece of equipment ( including the coil if it’s not a Air Handler as well as the Air Handler model number ) complete model number of the 4 ton to compare the AHRI number and SEER, EER and HSPF ratings of both.

Here is the web-site to check your ratings, enter the AHRI number top left side to see

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...idirectory.org/Search/SearchHome?ReturnUrl=%2F&usg=AOvVaw1pHe55mWNYsLpAKdmuwrti

Did they do a load calculation to see if the 4 ton was what you needed? as you mention you have a mini split already in one area. Have you tightened up your residence over the years from your original unit?

What tonnage do you now have in your 2000 sq. ft. House including the mini split?
 
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I guess Trane HP's are easier to find, we're waiting on $60,000 of equipment to come in from Trane for a job we signed a contract on last year. The folks still have good running a/c and furnaces, but want to upgrade their system's, good thing they're patient and in no hurry.
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
This is the information that shows up when I enter the AHRI number:
Outdoor Unit Model Number (Condenser or Single Package) : 4TWV0060A1
Indoor Unit Model Number (Evaporator and/or Air Handler) : 4TXCC009DS3
Furnace Model Number : P0V0C000M50SC+RP

I don't have model numbers for the 4 ton configuration, since the proposal was not detailed. When I questioned the salesperson he made it sound as though someone at Trane was making the determination about what to install. I suspect you are correct, that availability was a factor in the decision to use the larger system. And if it's true that the variable speed feature reduces the risk of over-sizing the capacity then we should be okay. The price did not change and we will get a larger rebate for the larger capacity system. Next week an independent company will come to do a HERS test, so I'll ask about our ductwork. So far the system has performed well, very quiet and running about 25-30% when it cycles on to heat.
 
When I questioned the salesperson he made it sound as though someone at Trane was making the determination about what to install.
No, Trane would have no say in that, they sure don't want any liability from what a contractor sold you.
 
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This is the information that shows up when I enter the AHRI number:
Outdoor Unit Model Number (Condenser or Single Package) : 4TWV0060A1
Indoor Unit Model Number (Evaporator and/or Air Handler) : 4TXCC009DS3
Furnace Model Number : P0V0C000M50SC+RP

I don't have model numbers for the 4 ton configuration, since the proposal was not detailed. When I questioned the salesperson he made it sound as though someone at Trane was making the determination about what to install. I suspect you are correct, that availability was a factor in the decision to use the larger system. And if it's true that the variable speed feature reduces the risk of over-sizing the capacity then we should be okay. The price did not change and we will get a larger rebate for the larger capacity system. Next week an independent company will come to do a HERS test, so I'll ask about our ductwork. So far the system has performed well, very quiet and running about 25-30% when it cycles on to heat.
What’s the AHRI number? Are those model numbers of equipment exactly what you have in your residence?

Shows one active number 206912462, and two production stopped numbers 204836627 and 205962346 if homework was done correctly
 
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These days with supply chain issues it's very common that you might have a unit available in one size but not another, which could be what happened here. As a matter of principle I think it's bad practice to switch out a unit to something other than quoted without telling the customer. I myself would always run it by the customer before the fact, if I wanted to do that.

From the information you gave, I highly doubt you actually need 5 tons, for either heating or cooling. So in theory it would be better to have the smaller unit, as you'd be able to modulate lower. In practice, is this going to be a problem - should you demand they rip it out and put in the 4 ton unit quoted? In my view, no. This heat pump modulates down to 25% of capacity. That means on the lowest speed, yours will be a 15K. If you had the 4 ton, it would go down to 12K. Slightly better turndown but not a huge difference.

The other question is whether your duct system can actually handle 5 tons worth of airflow. It very likely won't be able to. You can sort of test this yourself - change the setpoint a lot so it ramps to 100%, and see if the air noise is unreasonably loud. Luckily, with this unit, the fix for this is very easy. They can set a maximum speed for the unit, which in turn will limit the maximum airflow indoors.
 
These days with supply chain issues it's very common that you might have a unit available in one size but not another, which could be what happened here. As a matter of principle I think it's bad practice to switch out a unit to something other than quoted without telling the customer. I myself would always run it by the customer before the fact, if I wanted to do that.
I agree 100%!
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
These days with supply chain issues it's very common that you might have a unit available in one size but not another, which could be what happened here. As a matter of principle I think it's bad practice to switch out a unit to something other than quoted without telling the customer. I myself would always run it by the customer before the fact, if I wanted to do that.

From the information you gave, I highly doubt you actually need 5 tons. So in theory it would be better to have the smaller unit, as you'd be able to modulate lower. In practice, is this going to be a problem - should you demand they rip it out and put in the 4 ton unit quoted? In my view, no. This heat pump modulates down to 25% of capacity. That means on the lowest speed, yours will be a 15K. If you had the 4 ton, it would go down to 12K. Slightly better turndown but not a huge difference.

The other question is whether your duct system can actually handle 5 tons worth of airflow. It very likely won't be able to. You can sort of test this yourself - change the setpoint a lot so it ramps to 100%, and see if the air noise is unreasonably loud. Luckily, with this unit, the fix for this is very easy. They can set a maximum speed for the unit, which in turn will limit the maximum airflow indoors.
Thank you for your feedback. The bottom line is whether we ask them to replace it with the 4 ton, and I would only ask that if it was unquestionably the wrong size for our house. It is very loud at top speed, but still not louder than our old system. Good to know about the option to set a maximum speed. I hope the company that comes to perform the HERS test can weigh in on the duct adequacy.
 
What I would want to know are the partial-load SEER ratings of both the 4 and the 5 ton systems. Because the 5 ton may well have higher ultimate SEER numbers - while operating at 100% - but having 25% larger capacity it will operate at 100% far less often than the 4 ton and by so doing yield lower overall SEER performance in actual use.

And the second thing is: Do You Have Ductwork Sufficient To Properly Handle 5 Tons Worth Of Air Flow.

PHM
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We recently replaced our 30 year old Trane furnace/compressor with the variable speed XV20i heat pump, variable speed air handler (P-series modular blower), Trane evaporative coil and digital thermostat. The bid showed "Trane XV20i 4 Ton Condenser" and "Trane Evaporative Coil".

When I sent in the rebate application to our city, I was told that the rebate was for a 5 ton heat pump. Sure enough, I looked at the model numbers on the invoice and the installation was for a 5 ton condenser and 5 ton cased coil unit. I called and spoke to the person who sold us the unit, and he said something along the lines that this unit offered the highest SEER rating, and that since it was all variable speed the size (tonnage) was not too large for our house. Most of his comments went over my head, and after speaking in circles I finally ended the call amicably and apologized for my inability to understand the reason for the switch.

Our house is two level, 2000 square foot in inland Southern California. Winter temperatures rarely fall below 40F but summers can reach 105 for days on end. We have a mini-split system for the upstairs bedrooms because our duct system was never adequate to cool those rooms sufficiently. The company we hired has been in business for decades and is very highly regarded but I am still confused about why a 5 ton system was substituted for the 4 ton system, and how that could provide a higher SEER. I would mostly like reassurance that the capacity of the system is not too large for our house. Does fully variable speed really eliminate the problem of over-sizing the system?
 
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Discussion starter · #13 ·
Thank you for your feedback. The bottom line is whether we ask them to replace it with the 4 ton, and I would only ask that if it was unquestionably the wrong size for our house. It is very loud at top speed, but still not louder than our old system. Good to know about the option to set a maximum speed. I hope the company that comes to perform the HERS test can weigh in on the duct adequacy.
Everything matches up with the installed components. It's just a mystery why they didn't mention that they were installing a 5 ton system after we accepted the bid for a 4 ton system.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
What I would want to know are the partial-load SEER ratings of both the 4 and the 5 ton systems. Because the 5 ton may well have higher ultimate SEER numbers - while operating at 100% - but having 25% larger capacity it will operate at 100% far less often than the 4 ton and by so doing yield lower overall SEER performance in actual use.

PHM
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This approaches what he seemed to be trying to tell me. He said he "asked to configure the highest SEER" (I don't know who he asked, but assumed it was Trane software), and that the larger coil system was recommended. The argument went that the use of the larger capacity heat pump was needed because of the coils. He provided the estimate during his first visit, so it seems something was changed during the ordering process.
 
What I would want to know are the partial-load SEER ratings of both the 4 and the 5 ton systems. Because the 5 ton may well have higher ultimate SEER numbers - while operating at 100% - but having 25% larger capacity it will operate at 100% far less often than the 4 ton and by so doing yield lower overall SEER performance in actual use.

And the second thing is: Do You Have Ductwork Sufficient To Properly Handle 5 Tons Worth Of Air Flow.

PHM
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Actually with inverter systems it's the other way around. In general inverter motors are more efficient the more you turn them down - we can see this with ECM blowers, where the vast majority of energy savings comes in when you run them at lower speeds. Compressors are no different - the US government did a study several years back playing around with different sizes of inverter central AC (IQ Drive) systems and measuring the performance and efficiency. The "oversized" units came out to be more efficient. So if anything OP will save energy by having this slightly oversized unit.
 
. It's just a mystery why they didn't mention that they were installing a 5 ton system after we accepted the bid for a 4 ton system.
“Most of his comments went over my head, and after speaking in circles”

Simple, IMO,…you mentioned everything they said to you went over your head, so thinking they figured you where a somewhat uninformed homeowner in regards to HVAC?? Not saying you are but maybe they do?
 
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Why would the ductwork be undersized if system requirements only throttle to 4 ton?
Airflow will be less at 4 ton cooling load
New system. I hope ductwork was inspected
 
Warm startups would interest me. <g>

Is there a way to limit the maximum loading to some less than 100% level? If so, and the part load efficiency ratings are higher, why not just sell everybody a 5 ton and set the load limit to the Manual J calcs? <g>

PHM
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Why would the ductwork be undersized if system requirements only throttle to 4 ton?
Airflow will be less at 4 ton cooling load
New system. I hope ductwork was inspected
 
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I do not see a problem as long as the duct will handle the air flow needs of a 5 ton system.

If they sold it to you for the same price you got a bargain.

I have a customer that has been waiting for a 4 ton 4TWV0048 for months now, coming up on a half year. Their duct will handle 4 ton but 5 would be a problem I'm afraid.

Multiple issues are causing equipment shortages so if you got one that will work for the same price as a smaller one, thank them as you hand them the check and enjoy a great system.
 
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Why would the ductwork be undersized if system requirements only throttle to 4 ton?
Airflow will be less at 4 ton cooling load
New system. I hope ductwork was inspected
The system may still ramp higher than the peak load at times, for example if they adjust the setpoint for whatever reason.

Again a very easy problem to solve, they just need to set the maximum compressor speed to whatever the ductwork can handle.

Is there a way to limit the maximum loading to some less than 100% level? If so, and the part load efficiency ratings are higher, why not just sell everybody a 5 ton and set the load limit to the Manual J calcs? <g>

PHM
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Even though you can limit the maximum speed, larger unit means it can't turn down as much. Difference between a 5 ton and 4 ton isn't that big. But there's a substantial difference between, say, a 2 ton that can turn down to 6K BTU and a 5 ton that can turn down to 15K BTU. Not to mention differences in unit size, cost, etc. That said, inverter can definitely reduce the number of sizes that need to be sold. Bosch and the first generation Carrier Greenspeed decided to go with only 2 units to cover the whole 2-5 ton range, with software locks to cap max RPM. Trane for whatever reason decided to do it the same as their 2 stage units, selling in 1-ton increments.
 
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