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integrator

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Good day,

Does anyone have a copy of a control sequence for an ice Rink plant. We have a system that contains two brime pumps, VFD cooling tower and two compressors.

We are looking at replacing the standalone system with a DDC system and am trying to figure out the sequence.


Thanks
 
Thanks for the reply. When the ice rink isn't used, do you change setpoints so the plant doesn't run or run at a minimum. Does the brime pump run 24\7 or do you also cycle this when the ice temp starts to climb.
Thats depends on what the ice is being used for.

Hockey and figure skating it takes a week or more for all the air to rise out of the ice for a harder product. Figure skating is colder, Hockey you want the surface just below freezing.
 
Thanks for the reply. When the ice rink isn't used, do you change setpoints so the plant doesn't run or run at a minimum. Does the brime pump run 24\7 or do you also cycle this when the ice temp starts to climb.
Wish I could be of more assistance.
Unfortunately I've never worked on this type of equipment.
That's what's so great about this field always something new to learn. 😀
 
Thats depends on what the ice is being used for.

Hockey and figure skating it takes a week or more for all the air to rise out of the ice for a harder product. Figure skating is colder, Hockey you want the surface just below freezing.
What is the reasoning behind that? Everyone I have played hockey with loved harder ice...faster, easier to skate on and didn't slow the puck down...

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Done about 15 or 20 rinks now, typically nothing to complicated.

We have a system that contains two brime pumps, VFD cooling tower and two compressors.
The brine pumps run anytime the system is active. Depends on the design of the system, sometimes its lead/lag between them. Others might run one pump if only a single compressor is running and more when additional compressor are required. Seen a few on VFDs as well controlling based on the brine return temp.

Cooling tower is normally controlling based on head pressure.

Compressors all depends on what you have. Many are single speed with a handful of unloaders. Typically these are controlling off brine return temp, with a low limit on the chiller leaving temp. Staging of the unloaders may be more about oil return than temp control. Some compressors also have a handful of solenoids keeping their oil levels in check. Typically see reciprocating compressors, though recently a few have been screws with slide valves.

Normally working with a national rink outfit, so they sort what the staging / loading sequence needs to be at startup and just make the controls dance to their tune. Every system is a bit unique in the compressor load up/down sequence. Those compressors typically have a wad of independent safeties mounted on them. You don't want them tripping in the middle of the night and open with wet ice to many times lol.

Only seen one rink that setback the setpoint at night. Most rink managers don't bother with this and set it manually depending on what kind of skating is going on that day.

The other things I would look out for are heated snowmelt pits that melt the shavings out of the Zamboni machine, pumps feeding the waste heat below the rink, domestic water pre-heat HX valves, pumps, high pressure blow offs, refer monitors, etc.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Done about 15 or 20 rinks now, typically nothing to complicated.



The brine pumps run anytime the system is active. Depends on the design of the system, sometimes its lead/lag between them. Others might run one pump if only a single compressor is running and more when additional compressor are required. Seen a few on VFDs as well controlling based on the brine return temp.

Cooling tower is normally controlling based on head pressure.

Compressors all depends on what you have. Many are single speed with a handful of unloaders. Typically these are controlling off brine return temp, with a low limit on the chiller leaving temp. Staging of the unloaders may be more about oil return than temp control. Some compressors also have a handful of solenoids keeping their oil levels in check. Typically see reciprocating compressors, though recently a few have been screws with slide valves.

Normally working with a national rink outfit, so they sort what the staging / loading sequence needs to be at startup and just make the controls dance to their tune. Every system is a bit unique in the compressor load up/down sequence. Those compressors typically have a wad of independent safeties mounted on them. You don't want them tripping in the middle of the night and open with wet ice to many times lol.

Only seen one rink that setback the setpoint at night. Most rink managers don't bother with this and set it manually depending on what kind of skating is going on that day.

The other things I would look out for are heated snowmelt pits that melt the shavings out of the Zamboni machine, pumps feeding the waste heat below the rink, domestic water pre-heat HX valves, pumps, high pressure blow offs, refer monitors, etc.


Thanks for the great insight
 
What is the reasoning behind that? Everyone I have played hockey with loved harder ice...faster, easier to skate on and didn't slow the puck down...

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Softer ice is actually faster to a point. Especially for a puck.
Obviously you don't want melting ice.
But for figure skating you want really hard ice as the picks on figure skates really need to be able to dig in rather than break a big chunk out
 
Softer ice is actually faster to a point. Especially for a puck.
Obviously you don't want melting ice.
But for figure skating you want really hard ice as the picks on figure skates really need to be able to dig in rather than break a big chunk out
When I was playing competitively when I was younger....we all wanted to play at the rinks with the cold ice....easier to skate and glide, less snow build up and no ruts and pick holes....

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
That setup sounds interesting. Haven't seen plate & frame HX on the brine side. When I have done multiple rinks off a common plant, each rink will get its own pump(s) off a common chiller barrel.

When they can prefab things, the bulk of the refer plant be on a skid and slid in the room with what I have seen. They put the compressors, chiller barrel, bulk of the refer piping, electrical wiring, smaller pumps and a large electrical cabinet with all the contractors & controls all on the skid. Retro job or mech room without access to get something that large into, they do everything onsite of course.

Compressors I have seen are normally in the 100-150 HP range, almost always on soft starts. Don't recall any on VFDs yet, its been unloaders or slide valves for capacity control.

These rinks jobs gave me a new appreciation for NH4. One teaspoon of that gets out and the mech room will clear out in a hurry.

Bit of refer porn...

 
Its pretty niche area. If you get in with a big rink outfit (which there are only a couple) as a mechanical guy, get your TSA precheck or Nexus card and expect to travel. Least the guys I work with travel all over NA and I have little doubt they are making real good money. Its a ton of travel though.

Gonna have to give them some crap now that I'm looking at the pictures again. Someone has some arrows either pointing in the wrong direction or there some magic I don't understand.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Done about 15 or 20 rinks now, typically nothing to complicated.



The brine pumps run anytime the system is active. Depends on the design of the system, sometimes its lead/lag between them. Others might run one pump if only a single compressor is running and more when additional compressor are required. Seen a few on VFDs as well controlling based on the brine return temp.

Cooling tower is normally controlling based on head pressure.

Compressors all depends on what you have. Many are single speed with a handful of unloaders. Typically these are controlling off brine return temp, with a low limit on the chiller leaving temp. Staging of the unloaders may be more about oil return than temp control. Some compressors also have a handful of solenoids keeping their oil levels in check. Typically see reciprocating compressors, though recently a few have been screws with slide valves.

Normally working with a national rink outfit, so they sort what the staging / loading sequence needs to be at startup and just make the controls dance to their tune. Every system is a bit unique in the compressor load up/down sequence. Those compressors typically have a wad of independent safeties mounted on them. You don't want them tripping in the middle of the night and open with wet ice to many times lol.

Only seen one rink that setback the setpoint at night. Most rink managers don't bother with this and set it manually depending on what kind of skating is going on that day.

The other things I would look out for are heated snowmelt pits that melt the shavings out of the Zamboni machine, pumps feeding the waste heat below the rink, domestic water pre-heat HX valves, pumps, high pressure blow offs, refer monitors, etc.

Do you have numbers which the brine and head pressure are controlled too. I read the ice temp for hockey is between 22-24 F, would this be the brine temperature. Not sure on the head pressure for the cooling tower.

THanks
 
Do you have numbers which the brine and head pressure are controlled too. I read the ice temp for hockey is between 22-24 F, would this be the brine temperature. Not sure on the head pressure for the cooling tower.
Just looking at the last one which was NH4, they are running a 15F brine return set point and the condenser is controlling to 140#. Looks like one rink is running 21F ice and the other 22F. 14-17F brine return set point seems pretty typical in the handful I looked at.
 
Just looking at the last one which was NH4, they are running a 15F brine return set point and the condenser is controlling to 140#. Looks like one rink is running 21F ice and the other 22F. 14-17F brine return set point seems pretty typical in the handful I looked at.
Did you mean NH3? Or is this something I’m not aware of?


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Discussion starter · #18 ·
Just looking at the last one which was NH4, they are running a 15F brine return set point and the condenser is controlling to 140#. Looks like one rink is running 21F ice and the other 22F. 14-17F brine return set point seems pretty typical in the handful I looked at.

Orion,

Have you seen systems that don't control the cooling tower from compressor head pressure. The one I looked at today, only has a temperature probe strapped to the compressor, which is labled as HWJ @ 140F. The only other probe attached is called HDT and is set @ 275.


Thanks
 
All the ones I have done use pressure. If its working now, would have to assume its acceptable. If it ain't broke...don't fix it lol.

Monitor discharge and suction temp on all of them. Discharge temp sensor we have to use something that can read to 300F and normally kill the compressor when it hits around that 260-275F mark. Would have to think the one set at 275F is likely a high temp limit, not actually controlling the tower. Just a guess though. Would just adjust them and see what happens. Killing the tower for a few seconds won't hurt anything. You'll hear the pitch change as they start getting angry. Lockout a compressor, not an immediate issue either. Least not as long as you can get it running again lol.

If you do have to kill the whole system, you got a few hours before the ice starts to really go to crap. If it goes too long, don't be surprised if you can't keep all the compressors running as they go full bore trying to recover. At startup its pretty common to limit things to a one or two compressors until the floor is brought down a bit. Tower typically can't handle all the compressors running at 110% on a warm / humid day and you just end up bouncing off the high pressure / temp limits constantly. Normally they will start one, get the brine temp down. Start another, see if the tower can keep up. Rinse, wash, repeat till things are frozen good and proper.
 
And keep in mind the energy required to do a phase change. Ice to water, water to ice is a massive amount of energy. Brine can warmup up to a point at fixed rate then hit wall for a long time. Once it starts increasing in temp again, you got a massive load with little actual temp difference. 35F brine into these is prob equivalent to 150F return air on a DX RTU.
 
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