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ukrkoz

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
My system is from 2005 and I have all intentions to replace it now, before it all may cost tenfold more.
We live in Pac NW. No really cold winters, worst I have seen so far was 7 degrees and that's for like a day. Winters last maybe a week, ten days. Usually, winter temp is around 30.
We are in a 2 story, 4200 SF house without natural gas. I have LP but rather not use it.
We have very frequent power outages and I have 20Kw stand by generator.
Currently on 5 ton Trane with 3 heat strips. I think, heat strips amount to 30 kwt (?) and, when they kick in, they do instant very high draw, which chokes generator. If I disconnect white t-stat wire that controls Aux heat, generator does fine.
I was told to look for a new heat pump that slowly builds up Aux heat, what allows generator to match power demand and keep working.
2 story building with built in air ducts and airhandler inside the garage.
2x200A panels and 220 available.

I am seeking recommendations for something reasonably priced, with good warranty - we intend to be there for at least the next 10 years, maybe more - that will suit our needs and allow generator to operate. I am not interested in adding LP furnace. Reliability and ease of maintenance is a must. We normally keep heat at 67/65 cold times and rarely turn on AC.

Thank you in advance.
 
#4 ·
ukrkoz said:
My system is from 2005 and I have all intentions to replace it now, before it all may cost tenfold more.
We live in Pac NW. No really cold winters, worst I have seen so far was 7 degrees and that's for like a day. Winters last maybe a week, ten days. Usually, winter temp is around 30.
We are in a 2 story, 4200 SF house without natural gas. I have LP but rather not use it.
We have very frequent power outages and I have 20Kw stand by generator.
Currently on 5 ton Trane with 3 heat strips. I think, heat strips amount to 30 kwt (?) and, when they kick in, they do instant very high draw, which chokes generator. If I disconnect white t-stat wire that controls Aux heat, generator does fine.
I was told to look for a new heat pump that slowly builds up Aux heat, what allows generator to match power demand and keep working.
2 story building with built in air ducts and airhandler inside the garage.
2x200A panels and 220 available.

I am seeking recommendations for something reasonably priced, with good warranty - we intend to be there for at least the next 10 years, maybe more - that will suit our needs and allow generator to operate. I am not interested in adding LP furnace. Reliability and ease of maintenance is a must. We normally keep heat at 67/65 cold times and rarely turn on AC.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
I would go with gas backup for my heat pump. I am a generator tech as well as residential hvac service tech . I've seen 15kw strip heat shutting down a 40kw generator.

A saturated coil is a happy coil
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
You can likely just disconnect half your current heat strips.

I can. That's not the point. System is old. Blower fan was already replaced. Pump is whining a bit. I tmay work for th enext ten years or, fial, as usual, mid coldest winter this year.
I just want to replace it and sleep well.
That's why I am seeking advice.
Thank you.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I would go with gas backup for my heat pump. I am a generator tech as well as residential hvac service tech . I've seen 15kw strip heat shutting down a 40kw generator.

Well, that's why i am looking for new system that gradually draws, not spikes. I know they exist. And, from what I've heard, LP furnace is gas hog and I do not need two of them, gen is good enough.
 
#10 ·
Is that what a accurate load calculation says you need, a 5 ton to replace your existing system? A 30KW heater puts out 102k BTU along with your Heat Pump of say 45K BTU at 30 degrees. Do you really need the additional 102K BTU when 2nd stage calls? even if it’s a 20K that’s 68k BTU. You can’t install any size heater element in a Air Handler, usually they are rated at up to a certain size for a certain tonnage Air Handler.

Heaters come as one or more elements either tied together or can be broken up, as an example a 15 KW heater is typically a 10KW and 5KW, so when the Heat Pump can’t handle the load on cold outdoor temperatures the 2nd stage comes on, which in this example could bring in either the 10KW or the 5KW, as your still getting heat from the Heat Pump.

The only time you would use the full KW is when the Heat Pump fails, and you flip to emergency heat and run the full correctly sized heater elements.

At 30 degree outdoor temperature, thinking if your heat pump was working correctly it still would run without bringing on electric heat, you can get the heater elements locked out at above a certain OD temperature. Finding the balance point. Heaters usually have sequencers to bring them on, meaning they close the contacts to bring on a bank of heat once the sequencer is energized. You can stage them using a OD sensor.

As an example only page 21 gives the BTU ratings of a 5 ton Heat Pump at different OD temperatures

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tlet.com/documents/Specsheet-Goodman-GSZ14.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3-DoJHVuPZbUCqVclwovty

So you would need only a fraction of your heating elements to make up the difference in your area.
 
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#11 ·
ukrkoz said:
My system is from 2005 and I have all intentions to replace it now, before it all may cost tenfold more.
We live in Pac NW. No really cold winters,

worst I have seen so far was 7 degrees and that's for like a day. Winters last maybe a week, ten days.
Usually, winter temp is around 30.

We are in a 2 story, 4200 SF house without natural gas.
I have LP but rather not use it.

We have very frequent power outages and
I have 20Kw stand by generator.

Currently on 5 ton Trane with 3 heat strips.
I think, heat strips amount to 30 kwt (?) and, when they kick in, they do instant very high draw, which chokes generator.

If I disconnect white t-stat wire that controls Aux heat, generator does fine.
I was told to look for a new heat pump that slowly builds up Aux heat, what allows generator to match power demand and keep working.

2 story building with built in air ducts and airhandler inside the garage.

2x200A panels and 220 available.

I am seeking recommendations for something reasonably priced, with good warranty -
we intend to be there for at least the next 10 years, maybe more -
that will suit our needs and allow generator to operate.
I am not interested in adding LP furnace.

Reliability and ease of maintenance is a must.

We normally keep heat at 67/65 cold times and rarely turn on AC.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
2 SYSTEMS

Upstairs
1. Heat Pump with ~ 3 kw + 3 kw
Main Level
2. Heat Pump sized for ~ 24'F BALANCE POINT
with ~ 5 kw + 3 kw

Alternative: ? with Propane FURNACE BACK-UP
VERY, VERY Small Propane use

BUILT ___ 19 _ _ OR 2004
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
OK, thank yoiu for the heat strips science but, with all respect, this is not my question.
Can you, as a group, recommend actual system, brand name and complete package, that is reliable, reasonably priced and will work for amy application?
I had an installer that was lifetime expert but he retired and does not install anymore. Last time I spoke with him, he did suggest a LP furnace back up instead of heat strips and, I also have upgrade tank to 1000g before gen install.
Come fall and early springs, we get storms that result in power outages anywhere from a day to 5 days. Gen already ran twice for few days last fall and it ran entire house and HP with heat strips disabled.
I am not opposed to LP furnace, as far as I do not have to run refill truck after each use. ANd I do get very contradictory statements from people that had this or that installed.

That in mind, which brand/tons/SEER/set up do you recommend?

Again, thank you in advance.
 
#13 ·
Consider a variable speed ducted system, very quiet, typically smaller outdoor footprint, can be mounted extremely close to a wall, unlike a conventional system, think those things can run down to around 5+ degree without backup coming on, as you mention the minimal use LP, thinking a propane high efficiency furnace or just a less complicated 80% one, as there are rebates and the Federal Tax Credit for the 95%+ models. Even on Heat Pumps if the SEER and EER, and HSPF meets a minimum threshold.

Brands? Find a Contractor that’s versed on installing one of these, as they are more complicated than a bare bone conventional one. Or just install a regular lower SEER Heat Pump, less complicated with the propane. Manufacturers make very little of their equipment nowadays, and the parts come from all over the world, most from 2nd world countries. The outdoor unit as an example manufacturers pretty much only make the painted sheetmetal frame and coil. The compressor and all the other parts are farmed out, Reversing valve, service valves, motor, fan blade, capacitor(s) circuit boards, refrigerant, compressor contactor, etc. etc. the Furnace is the same, pretty much just the painted sheetmetal box and the HX and possibly the burner tubes and mounting hardware, the rest farmed out. Gas valve, high limit safety controls, module board, motors, blower wheel, etc. etc.

Manufacturers offer extended labor warranties if that interest you, ask for AHRI matched systems.

Register your system of choice as manufacturers warranty decreases if you never register all parts.

The only thing I would steer clear of is systems with micro channel coils, I’m old school and still not sold on them for HVAC, Microchannel coils per se are used on car radiators, but that’s a different animal IMO, and get a aluminum indoor coil. There are 6+ major manufacturers and many minor manufacturers ( some are rebadged major brand units ) that produce something like 50-60+ brands, many just painted a different color, many have slick advertising campaigns to tell you their systems is the best thing since sliced bread.

You should look at the total picture, the manufacturers probably only make maybe 10% of a complete HVAC system in a residence, the ductwork and registers alone make up the biggest position of a system, then the lineset, all the electrical, condensor pad, breaker, thermostat etc. etc. are installed by others that have nothing to do with the manufacturers.
 
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#14 ·
ukrkoz said:
OK, thank yoiu for the heat strips science but, with all respect, this is not my question.

Can you, as a group, recommend actual system,
brand name and complete package, that is reliable,
reasonably priced and will work for my application?


I had an installer that was lifetime expert but he retired and does not install anymore.
Last time I spoke with him, he did suggest a LP furnace back up instead of heat strips and,
I also have upgrade tank to 1000g before gen install.

Come fall and early springs, we get storms that result in power outages anywhere from a day to 5 days.
Gen already ran twice for few days last fall and it ran entire house and HP with heat strips disabled.

I am not opposed to LP furnace, as far as I do not have to run refill truck after each use.
AND I do get very contradictory statements from people that had this or that installed.

That in mind, which brand/tons/SEER/set up do you recommend?

Again, thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
a COMPLETE package requires
a Complete House description wrt thermal properities
AND Completing the HVAC Design Process

My gmail adress: racingdan11
_______ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com
 

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Discussion starter · #15 ·
Thank you.
That's exactly - almost - what I look for.
About the only variable speed ducted I can Google brings me to Bosch inverter systems but I can't find anything that is five ton.
Though I do find it promising that comp runs off DC and inverter. Sounds like a much less instant power draw.
I was hoping for vertical outside unit but Bosch has only large square cubes.
Actually, Bosch was recommended about 5 months ago by a guy who looked at my system. He's incommunicado now. Mof, every installer I knew and called, appears not to be interested in work. Must be the overall construction hipe going on.
I'm leaning towards simply buying package now and steering it until installer find itself. I anticipate price hike soon and, as it's warm weather coming, don't even need HVAC running till late November.
 
#16 · (Edited)
ukrkoz said:
Thank you.
That's exactly - almost - what I look for.
About the only variable speed ducted I can Google brings me to Bosch inverter systems but I can't find anything that is five ton.
Though I do find it promising that comp runs off DC and inverter. Sounds like a much less instant power draw.
I was hoping for vertical outside unit but Bosch has only large square cubes.
Actually, Bosch was recommended about 5 months ago by a guy who looked at my system. He's incommunicado now. Mof, every installer I knew and called, appears not to be interested in work. Must be the overall construction hipe going on.
I'm leaning towards simply buying package now and steering it until installer find itself. I anticipate price hike soon and, as it's warm weather coming, don't even need HVAC running till late November.
Click to expand...
Here’s another brand Daikin Fit, outstanding manufacturers warranty, the best out there. Comes in 5 ton according to specifications sheet.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ing/whole-house/heat-pump/daikin-fit-heat-pump&usg=AOvVaw2bCH6B-S4oG1ijPubWmwmw

Vertical discharge, looks like they have two https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...SUQFjAAegQIBxAD&url=https://daikincomfort.com/&usg=AOvVaw3VNi22qKgAQqffCPyToBjp

Trane has one, in side discharge in variable specifications sheet says 5 ton and a couple in vertical looks to get up to 5 tons.

https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/heat-pumps/

https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/heat-pumps/xv19/ vertical

There are others,.. if your interested in extended labor warranties, don’t believe the Bosch comes with one as an option, whereas the Trane and Daikin does, of the two Daikin extended warranty ( either 6 or 12 years ) is backed by themselves whereas the Trane ( 5 or 10 years ) uses a 3rd party.

Amana owned by Daikin has a couple vertical https://www.amana-hac.com/products/heat-pumps another brand with a outstanding warranty, if that’s your thing.

Lennox https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...4SQmjWdRPc8lPS-5zHreTg&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwighu7XnoPwAhWDZs0KHVV7AbEQ0Qx6BAgDEAE

Did not go into detail if they come in 5 tons

A no frill brand,..don’t know if you can hook up to a gas furnace thou. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...verter-heat-pump-air-conditioner-split-system/&usg=AOvVaw1tdH9fYx6dY7vuN9DTvSg5
 
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Discussion starter · #17 ·
Thank you.
Most helpful.
Only need to figure installer. I HATE going large companies, it's Dairy Queen jobs right there.
I really appreciate this, Bazooka.
 
#18 ·
“ I HATE going large companies“

I tend to agree, IMO many times it’s just a revolving door policy, different Techs. come out or they leave ( another non union company ) for what they hope is greener grass. Smaller companies tend to have vested interests, especially if some family members work there.

Looking more closely at the Lennox XP25 shows a 5 ton model.

Thinking the biggest thing is making sure whichever brand and company you use, their Techs. are trained on those types of systems for setup and fine tuning, along with decently sized ductwork as they are not simple uncomplicated units.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 ·
I have a silly question.
Inverter pump. Does it mean that it has very small draw, being inverter driven Dc motor? I am trying to avoid high amp spikes at start up.
Also, the way my current system is set, it has one of them cubes right in the kitchen window front. When it defrosts, it blows a huge steam cloud right onto the window. I totally would prefer to have vertical flat unit that will blow in different direction.
 
#20 · (Edited)
The Trane gives you that a vertical model but side discharge as seen in XV20i also the XV18 which I believe they make a optional side discharge cap that mounts on top to deflect the air sideways like the XV20i

All this was given you to research. Look closely at the top part of the XV20i

https://www.trane.com/pdf/TT_72-1209-29_Heat-Pump-Brochure_Trane_SV2.pdf Looks like it shoots out in 4 direction at a slight upward angle. The XV20i and XV18 gives a 12 year compressor warranty and 10 years parts and coil warranty once registered.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct.../pdf/Trane%20WeatherGuard%20Kit%20Brochure.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1XVuzX2YcHG6XucT_raMnG

Don’t know if it fits the XV18 off hand as I’m not a Trane Dealer.

Then there are the side discharge models, which several info packages where sent you, which you do not seem to be considering? Can be mounted closer to a wall, typically smaller footprint, ultra quiet.

Shouldn’t bidding Contractors have this information for you also?, in regards to the variable speed amprege draw, I never installed one myself, being semi retired, but can only imagine if your at minimum RPM of compressor motor your amprege draw is minimal, others here can chime in more about that part. I get it you want to arm yourself with info, to deal with bidding Contractors, but they should be able answer your questions, might as well make them work for your business...
 
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ukrkoz
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