Under what conditions does R22(AC) get chemically damaged that require the freon to be replaced? Temps,acidic oil?
Damaged R-22
TechmanTerry
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Well young man, I am "saying" that I am not guessing here as per Carl Geist and also as per Dan Wright of National Refrigerants. Those 2 people know an awful lot more about oil and refrigerants than me. Where is Rob Yost also from National Refrigerants? Call them yourself!!!!!!!!!! 1-800-262-0012. I could be wrong but Dan Wright is right!
What kind of tests are you talking about to prove this to yourself?
Haha,
I'm not in any way implying I know more than anyone else.
I mentioned it in a different thread, but if you were to take an acidic system, confirmed that it's acidic, recover the refrigerant into a clean cylinder, then check it again, if it's still acidic, to me, it's no good.
Then you could take it and hoop up your recovery machine to the cylinder and create a loop, then put a filter in the loop and run it for an hour or so, then check it again.
If I get the chance I'll do it. I just don't work on that much new stuff so It'll be difficult but that would be my version of a test.
I don't disbelieve you Terry, if you say that's what they say, I believe you spoke to them and that's what they said.
I'm not in any way implying I know more than anyone else.
I mentioned it in a different thread, but if you were to take an acidic system, confirmed that it's acidic, recover the refrigerant into a clean cylinder, then check it again, if it's still acidic, to me, it's no good.
Then you could take it and hoop up your recovery machine to the cylinder and create a loop, then put a filter in the loop and run it for an hour or so, then check it again.
If I get the chance I'll do it. I just don't work on that much new stuff so It'll be difficult but that would be my version of a test.
I don't disbelieve you Terry, if you say that's what they say, I believe you spoke to them and that's what they said.
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Its the oil that is acidic not the refrigerant. It the oil in the refrigerant thats acidic, not the freon!
A little lol here. When not if you call National Refrigerants I advise you to not say FREON to them. Refrigerant is a nice word to them as they are competitors to DuPont/Chemours!!! LOL.
I wonder how many MILLIONS of pounds of all refrigerants that were sent into each and every recyclers as "no good" have changed hands while the refrigerant was still good.
A little lol here. When not if you call National Refrigerants I advise you to not say FREON to them. Refrigerant is a nice word to them as they are competitors to DuPont/Chemours!!! LOL.
I wonder how many MILLIONS of pounds of all refrigerants that were sent into each and every recyclers as "no good" have changed hands while the refrigerant was still good.
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I am just a Tech who humps around a 50 lb toolbox.
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What about 410A does it chemically break down in the presence of moisture or acidic oil?
Seems we have established R22 does not break down but what about 410A since it is the current refrigerant?
We have had to change out the r22 a couple times in my area because we suspected cross-contamination from some of the hacks around here but we are extremely careful to recommend that only as a last resort usually after many months of trying to decide we have had several cases where that was the solution. I would like to find a Testing Lab where we could take samples of refrigerant to determine if they were cross-contaminated.
When we do a major (ie compressor or coil change) repair on a 410A system that is in otherwise excellent shape we almost always replace the refrigerant now I'm questioning if that is a good idea or maby just a waste.
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Seems we have established R22 does not break down but what about 410A since it is the current refrigerant?
We have had to change out the r22 a couple times in my area because we suspected cross-contamination from some of the hacks around here but we are extremely careful to recommend that only as a last resort usually after many months of trying to decide we have had several cases where that was the solution. I would like to find a Testing Lab where we could take samples of refrigerant to determine if they were cross-contaminated.
When we do a major (ie compressor or coil change) repair on a 410A system that is in otherwise excellent shape we almost always replace the refrigerant now I'm questioning if that is a good idea or maby just a waste.
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The Factory owned Trane Supply in my area has refrigerant analyzers they will use to test refrigerant on request.What about 410A does it chemically break down in the presence of moisture or acidic oil?
Seems we have established R22 does not break down but what about 410A since it is the current refrigerant?
We have had to change out the r22 a couple times in my area because we suspected cross-contamination from some of the hacks around here but we are extremely careful to recommend that only as a last resort usually after many months of trying to decide we have had several cases where that was the solution. I would like to find a Testing Lab where we could take samples of refrigerant to determine if they were cross-contaminated.
When we do a major (ie compressor or coil change) repair on a 410A system that is in otherwise excellent shape we almost always replace the refrigerant now I'm questioning if that is a good idea or maby just a waste.
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I wasn't arguing that point...fully agree with you.
Terry,
Fair enough, the oil might be what's acidic in the refrigerant and not the refrigerant itself but if the test strip comes out reading acidic, then how could one be comfortable using it?
I got it, the refrigerant itself is not acidic, but it's still contaminated and you might not be able to use it.
I'm not saying you can't, I would just be hesitant to unless I tested it and all was well.
Fair enough, the oil might be what's acidic in the refrigerant and not the refrigerant itself but if the test strip comes out reading acidic, then how could one be comfortable using it?
I got it, the refrigerant itself is not acidic, but it's still contaminated and you might not be able to use it.
I'm not saying you can't, I would just be hesitant to unless I tested it and all was well.
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Good to know i will look into it. The guys at united refrigeration thought i was nuts when i asked if they had an analyzer.
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As I said in post 15, rack units with acidic oil gets multiple oil changes while running. Once you change the compressor most of the oil has been removed. A good suction filter will take care of the rest!
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You filter the refrigerant. Set up a recovery machine and a high capacity filter set up and run the refrigerant in and out of a tank or 2 and through the drier.
I have a stand I made with a removable core shell for doing this.
Usually this process would be taking place while performing other repairs.
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I don't believe R22 can be damaged other than by passing trough an electic arc or flame. (I would believe this is a true statement for any of the other refrigerants as well.) You will not have either condition inside a refrigeration or HVAC unit. Burn-outs, short to ground or phase to phase the electric arc, doesn't happen long enough to cause damage to the refrigerant
For the sake of discussion what I may tell a customer about "damaged" refrigerant: Definition of "Damaged" refrigerant is something I/we don't have the means to correct under normal field conditions. You can get a pretty good idea if your refrigerant has been compromised (mixed with other gasses) by using your service manifold and a thermometer. Use your PT chart, at 70F, R22 will exert 121 psi. If your guage show something different (@ 70F) like 160 psi or 100 psi it's mixed. In the field I have no way to split out those gases. That's all the refrigerant analyzers do that I've seen. Those times when the refrigerant has been compromised by lot's of acid, water, dirt (contamination). I will tell customers it's their choice I can clean the refrigerant the best I can with filters/driers, cold traps..... or I can use new refrigerant which most of the time is more cost effective, not that the refrigerant is un-usable. On the flip side large volumes, say 1000 pounds of R22, well they can buy an awfull lot of labor for the cost of 1000 pounds of replacement R22. But most commercial/industrials customers I've dealt with don't want to have the machine down long enough to clean the old and tell you to use new refrigerant. It's more cost effective for them
In the past when I suspected air (nitrogen) being the gas that was mixed with the R22 I purged the bottle until I got the correct temp and pressure. I have circulated and cleaned up refrigerant with activated driers, cold traps and acid away. But with todays EPA requirements we can't purge nor can we even give the stuff to someone to use unless we can certify the refrigerant has been returned to new condition. I know of no-one in my area that has recycling, recirtification capability. I don't know if you took a gas sample and sent it for chemical anlaysis if that would constitute as new certification.??? Just my opnion on small quatities that would not be cost effective for me. So the "stuff" goes back as damaged, contaminated whatever the vendor will take it as and the cheapest to get rid of
Just my 2 cents
For the sake of discussion what I may tell a customer about "damaged" refrigerant: Definition of "Damaged" refrigerant is something I/we don't have the means to correct under normal field conditions. You can get a pretty good idea if your refrigerant has been compromised (mixed with other gasses) by using your service manifold and a thermometer. Use your PT chart, at 70F, R22 will exert 121 psi. If your guage show something different (@ 70F) like 160 psi or 100 psi it's mixed. In the field I have no way to split out those gases. That's all the refrigerant analyzers do that I've seen. Those times when the refrigerant has been compromised by lot's of acid, water, dirt (contamination). I will tell customers it's their choice I can clean the refrigerant the best I can with filters/driers, cold traps..... or I can use new refrigerant which most of the time is more cost effective, not that the refrigerant is un-usable. On the flip side large volumes, say 1000 pounds of R22, well they can buy an awfull lot of labor for the cost of 1000 pounds of replacement R22. But most commercial/industrials customers I've dealt with don't want to have the machine down long enough to clean the old and tell you to use new refrigerant. It's more cost effective for them
In the past when I suspected air (nitrogen) being the gas that was mixed with the R22 I purged the bottle until I got the correct temp and pressure. I have circulated and cleaned up refrigerant with activated driers, cold traps and acid away. But with todays EPA requirements we can't purge nor can we even give the stuff to someone to use unless we can certify the refrigerant has been returned to new condition. I know of no-one in my area that has recycling, recirtification capability. I don't know if you took a gas sample and sent it for chemical anlaysis if that would constitute as new certification.??? Just my opnion on small quatities that would not be cost effective for me. So the "stuff" goes back as damaged, contaminated whatever the vendor will take it as and the cheapest to get rid of
Just my 2 cents
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Ive done the purge technique many times, and still do.
I consider it de minimis.
No different then a machine that has a built in purge unit.
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I consider it de minimis.
No different then a machine that has a built in purge unit.
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heatingman: To some extent I do to, especially if I think it is air. I have raised more than one eybrow when I have used R22 and nitrogen to find a leak, then just blow it off. I have found their are a fair number who know it's not acceptable to blow off gas from a machine or bottle. Not worth the risk sometimes. But if I suspect mixed refrigerants purging is not likely going to help that.
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Nothing with letting a recovery tank sit then releasing suspected air from the top!
I also use recovered gas for leak checking...…..up to 5PSIG!
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