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Grawburg

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Hello everyone. My background is as commercial HVAC estimator and PM, but I do some freelance writing for a residential HVAC blog. I've been asked to write an article about how leaving a residential tstat "on" (vs "auto") during the summer in a humid climate encourages mold and mites.

The website I was referred to claims that houses in the south with the a/c "on" never properly dehumidify because, after the compressor shuts off, the fan continues to blow condensate off the coil putting humidity back into the home. Another website says indoor RH can reach 70% as a result.

I'm just not buying it...but don't know how long the evaporator coil stays wet after the compressor shuts off. I can't help but think the tstat would call for cooling long before indoor humidity levels got that high...certainly before mold or mites were an issue. Maybe at night with the tstat set back?

Someone convince me I'm wrong. :)
 
No one is answering because you're not wrong

While it is possible that the humidity can rise because of leaving the fan on it's not going to cause an immediate increase in mold or mites. On a large coil and pan there *might* be a quart of water to evaporate. Assuming that the AC never operates again this can contribute to raising the indoor RH. The indoor RH will be far higher with no AC and the fluctuations of the outdoor humidity, temperature, and the activities of the indoors areas, and the occupants.

It takes roughly a few days to a week of high indoor humidity, condensing humidity, to allow spores to germinate and mites to grow. Both need a source of moisture, food, and a cozy place to live.
 
Not sure. I know I leave mine “on” at my house now. Keeps the house much more “even” and comfortable. Which is funny cause I’ve been telling people for years to leave it on “auto” but that was before I bought my own house and put in a/c. I would guess that if the evap is pitched toward the drain there wouldn’t be too big an issue leaving it “on” but I can’t say for sure about the mold
 
If a customer has a room or a corner of a room that is not as cool as the rest of the house, they can REDUCE the temp difference by adding ceiling fans "OR" run the furnace/AH fan constantly.
I know it works in my home. I have one room that is 4f warmer if I do not run the fan constant, but it is ONLY 2f diff if I run the fan constant.
 
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Mold no. I have been running a continous fan for over 20 yrs. It stops the air from stratification and my basement isn't 15-20 degrees cooler. My air filter gets dirty filtering the air. That being said we have had 2-3 clients a year for the last couple who claim their new HI-EFF systems won't keep up on the humidity. Running the fan on auto solved the problem each time. Larger coils, more water to re-evaporate, it can make sense. I wonder sometimes if the focus on efficiency and SEER rating has sacraficed humidity control. Something gained something lost rule has to play out somewhere.

Molded plastic pans pitched toward the front, drain pans hold very little water. Mold and mites sounds like the internet BS story of the week IMO.
 
One piece of the puzzle is if the equipment is over sized or sized correctly. If the system is sized correctly the constant fan may make humidity a few % higher but it should still be fine. On the other hand if the system is over sized it will not run long enough to properly dehumidify then adding the evaporating of condensate just makes the problem worse.
 
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I look at it this way. If the fan "ON", causes so much moisture to re-evaporate , that it becomes a problem , then I need a longer run time . So that would translate to a system that is probably oversized.

Discuss whole-house-dehumidifiers in your article. Great addition to health and RH control.

Maybe @teddybear will chime in.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
This is a big can of worms! Most of you know about this, but I will attempt to symmurize my current opinion on the subject. Much to be said in favor of fan "on".
The cooling/heating load on a home varies depending on sun position, wind direction, internal activity, stack effect, on and on.
VS fan on low speed, 100 watts, are well suited for this. Simple fan motors are hogs is "on" 24/7, 500 watts or so, noisy, induce pressures on the walls because of imbalance.
Effect on moisture levels in the home
Winter "no problem" in fact because fan on will make a humidifier work much better.
A/c is more exciting. It takes 15-30 mins for a cooling coil to load with moisture to the point where moisture goes down the drain. This 1-2 lbs. per ton of coil. Horizontal coils hold more moisture than vertical. At the end of the cooling cycle, this amount of moisture is on the cooling coil. The moisture will re-evaporate back to the home depending on the location of the cooling coil, amount of air flowing through the coil, temperature/%RH of the air, and ??.
Coils in basements and crawlspaces without air circulation dry the slowest because they are cooler, +2 hours in a <50%RH home. Attic coils in high heat dry much quicker, 1 hour in 135^F attic, slower at night. Fan on high flow <1 hour 50%RH home. One lb. of moisture re-evaporated in 900 sw.ft. of living space may raise indoor %RH 10%.
I am going to make this two part post. I have other duties that need attention.
Will be back later. Feel free to raise any issues you feel strongly about so far. Its a discussion.
Regards Teddy Bear
 
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RH has more to do with how tight, insulated and if has a vapor barrier. If a house is tight fan on or auto doesn't make a difference. Coil doesn't hold enough water to change RH. Loose house will make a difference, with fan on the constant air movement will pull RH into the house by being cooler than outside and leaking air around windows and through walls. Blower door test is one way to see how tight a house is.
 
RH has more to do with how tight, insulated and if has a vapor barrier. If a house is tight fan on or auto doesn't make a difference. Coil doesn't hold enough water to change RH. Loose house will make a difference, with fan on the constant air movement will pull RH into the house by being cooler than outside and leaking air around windows and through walls. Blower door test is one way to see how tight a house is.
The major source of moisture is the infiltrating/ventilating fresh outdoor air. A healthy home needs a fresh air change in 4-5 hours. If the outdoor fresh air is <55^F dew point with a 75^F indoor temperature is 50%RH, acceptable, yes. The occupants in the home add their moisture to ventilation as it passes through the home. four occupants add 1-2 lbs of moisture per hour according to ASHRAE.
Summers in St. Louis and throughout the green grass climates have outdoor dew points of about 70^F. During winds and operation of exhaust fans including kitchen hood and clothes drier, you may hours of +100 cfm of fresh air passing through the home. Many suggest having a 80-100 cfm of filtered fresh make-up air circulated throughout the home at a minimum when occupied.
Doing a Manual J shows that 5-7,000 btus of latent cooling loads are common during the summer during the 24 hours of a day. The sensible cooling at peak heat is 28,000-30,000 btus of sensible cooling per hour.
Evenings and rainy days commonly have 5,000-7,000 btus of latent during the 24 hours of the day.
Turning off the a/c will quickly demonstrate that the indoor dew point will rise above the outdoor dew point when occupants are present.
In a perfectly sealed home with occupants, the indoor dew point will rise because of the occupants adding moisture from respiration and activities until they die from a lack of oxygen. Fresh air ventilation is suggested to delute indoor pollutants and renew oxygen.
During high cooling loads, a properly adjust a/c will remove about 3 lbs. of moisture per ton of cooling. That would 9lbs. or 1 gallon of mositure per hour. As the sun sets and throughout the evening, the cycles on/off, removing less moisture. The indoor moisture level rises accordingly. On a wet rainy day with a 70^F dew points outdoors, the home will get damp from the fresh air and the occupants. At 60%RH inside,expect dust mites to grow. 80-90%RH under carpets on concrete and in mechanical equipment will also go mold.
This goes back to the original discussion about fan "on" or "auto". Fan "on"circulates the house air through the ducts evaporating the moisture in the ducts. The reduces moisture in the ducts but raises moisture in the home. Therefore less mold problems in the ducts, a high %RH in the home.
It is important to setup the a/c to remove enough moisture
Adding a small whole house is necessary to maintain <50%RH during any significant cooling.
Many now are opting to add a small whole house dehumidifier to supplement the a/c in maintain <50%RH throughout the home even when the a/c is off and it is raining outside.
Get a $10 %RH meter and follow what really happening your home.
Looking forward to hearing from all.
Regards Teddy Bear
 
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ive solved two humidity issue houses this year by just suggesting the HO keeps the fan in the "auto" setting. i returns a couple of times to check. however, while it did work at those 2 homes, i also believe the AC's were oversized. in the end it was the cheapest solution for the HO
 
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No one is answering because you're not wrong

While it is possible that the humidity can rise because of leaving the fan on it's not going to cause an immediate increase in mold or mites. On a large coil and pan there *might* be a quart of water to evaporate. Assuming that the AC never operates again this can contribute to raising the indoor RH. The indoor RH will be far higher with no AC and the fluctuations of the outdoor humidity, temperature, and the activities of the indoors areas, and the occupants.

It takes roughly a few days to a week of high indoor humidity, condensing humidity, to allow spores to germinate and mites to grow. Both need a source of moisture, food, and a cozy place to live.
He's talking about Florida where humidity is a bigger issue than most other places.

Depending on size of home. Re evaporating 1 quart of water off of the coil and out of the drain pan, will add almost 8% RH to the home. When in a humid area, if the A/C isn't bring the RH down to less than 52%, you risk mold growth.

EG: 2400 sq ft home with 8' ceilings. At 76°F and 50% RH. Re evaporate 1 quart of water(roughly 2 pounds of water/moisture) from pan and coil, and the humidity rises to 57.3%. Then depending on how tight/loosely constructed the home is, it rises more. So the question then becomes, will the A/C run again before the RH exceeds 60%.
 
Did I say "a can of worms"?
Any green grass cllmate has the same problem that Gulf States have. Including MN, has weeks of +70^F dew points. Add to the problem, north of the Mason Dixie line, the home is built and connected a cool damp whole in the ground. This is more than enough moisture to have mites and molds in any green grass climate.
One more worm from the can!
Most homes are air tight enough that the home get very little fresh air unless the wind is blowing or the stack effect is strong. A home needs a fresh air change in 4-5 hours when occupied to purge the indoor pollutants and renew oxygen. Winter and windy, ok. Summer and calm, it may take 12 hours for an air change. This is not healthy for sensitive occupants. It will not hurt a "good a/c guy", but the rest of us are best served with a steady trickle of fresh filtered air and kept below 50%RH, healthy and comfortable.
In the final review, we must end up with steady trickle of fresh air circulated throughout the occupied space of the home for comfort and health. It does not need to be 700-1,000 cfm but enough to balance temperatures and circulate the fresh air throughout.
Ventilating dehumidifiers, ERVs, HRVs are the tools depending on climate and the amount of fresh air. Last issue is make-up air for the exhaust devices, like the bath fans, kitchen hood, and clothes. Using make-up air ventilation benefits these exhaust devices.
A 100 CFM of filtered fresh air when occupied makes sense. Also using CO2 levels to activate the fresh air ventilation would minimize the amount of ventilation needed.
When unoccupied or wind is up or doors/windows are open, no need to operate the fresh air systems.
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
I am betting on mechanical fresh filtered air and supplemental dehumidification to support a killer KING a/c that is capable of <50% any time is runs for +45 mins.
VS a/c will not keep a home dry during evenings and rainy days. Manual J supports the high cooling loads, both sensible and latent. As the sensible cooling subsides, the latent load continues throughout the evening and cool damp/rainy days is all green grass climates.
Grawburg-please post your article on our site when finished.
Your comments are appreciated.
Regards Teddy Bear
 
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fresh outside air aint that good when its 90+ degrees with a dewpoint in the upper 60's and above.
your right, most people not fro here dont realize that Minnesota is basicly a swamp. it gets Florida humid, just not as long

the two example i ran into both had 4 pass evaporators. the HO both also complained no water was coming out of the drain. well i ran the ac for well over an hour and it took about that long for the condensate to start pouring out. during normal operation the stat would satisfy befor enough condensate could build to where the fin pack could not hold back gravity.

yes both where running coils well below indoor dewpoints. 4 pass coils will hold a lot of water
 
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I don't really buy the mold and mites stick, but in my house at least, leaving the fan on does keep humidity higher. This summer I've actually done both to see what difference it makes, and with the fan on auto, my house will stay around 40% (according to my Sensi stat, however accurate that is) give or take a few clicks. If I leave the fan on, it will be up around 50-55%. This obviously isn't scientific, just setting it for a couple days and seeing what the humidity is when I get home, but it's pretty consistant. My fan is variable speed ecm, so I usually keep it on 24/7 the rest of the year, but not in the summer.
 
I don't really buy the mold and mites stick, but in my house at least, leaving the fan on does keep humidity higher. This summer I've actually done both to see what difference it makes, and with the fan on auto, my house will stay around 40% (according to my Sensi stat, however accurate that is) give or take a few clicks. If I leave the fan on, it will be up around 50-55%. This obviously isn't scientific, just setting it for a couple days and seeing what the humidity is when I get home, but it's pretty consistant. My fan is variable speed ecm, so I usually keep it on 24/7 the rest of the year, but not in the summer.
Help us with the part you maintain <50%RH when its raining or cool damp evening and the a/c does not run. In other words, no sensible cooling and high outdoor dew points.
regards Teddy Bear
 
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You are wrong in that you are sort of talking about several different things. And your final conclusion is based on facts not in evidence. You have no way of projecting that the cooling will cycle on before the RH rises.

Yes; leaving the indoor blower on ON at the wall stat will re-evaporator all of the moisture remaining on the cooling coil when the cooling cycle ends.

Yes; that will add to the total moisture content of the air in the conditioned space.

But "How Much?" is a trickier question.

And: "encourages mold and mites" would be a tougher case to make.

For one thing; it is not going to be a constant answer for all systems and situations. And projecting a single answer would be a dis-service to the article's readers.

To dis-courage mold and mites the indoor RH% needs to be less than 50%. Can properly heat-load-sized systems with constant indoor blower operation maintain that? Maybe. Can oversized (a far too common thing) systems with constant indoor blower operation maintain 50%? Probably not. Although they likely couldn't do it even With the indoor blower cycling on and off with the cooling either. <g>

Sizing the cooling equipment accurately and exactly to the conditioned space is a far more important factor to indoor RH levels than is how you operate the indoor blower.

PHM
---------------



Hello everyone. My background is as commercial HVAC estimator and PM, but I do some freelance writing for a residential HVAC blog. I've been asked to write an article about how leaving a residential tstat "on" (vs "auto") during the summer in a humid climate encourages mold and mites.

The website I was referred to claims that houses in the south with the a/c "on" never properly dehumidify because, after the compressor shuts off, the fan continues to blow condensate off the coil putting humidity back into the home. Another website says indoor RH can reach 70% as a result.

I'm just not buying it...but don't know how long the evaporator coil stays wet after the compressor shuts off. I can't help but think the tstat would call for cooling long before indoor humidity levels got that high...certainly before mold or mites were an issue. Maybe at night with the tstat set back?

Someone convince me I'm wrong. :)
 
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If it were me... writing this article...

I would touch on the 'potential' for increased humidity by leaving the blower 'on'...
Then spend more time discussing the following:
*Properly address the house to manage infiltration/exfiltration (spend $$$ on the house as well as the heating and AC system)
Then address:
*Proper ductwork to evenly distribute air in the house...
and
*Proper sizing of equipment (bigger is usually not better, and in many cases worse)!

If these two items are not addressed... AFTER the house is addressed... the question of blower 'on' or blower 'auto' is, IMO, really irrelevant.
 
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Help us with the part you maintain <50%RH when its raining or cool damp evening and the a/c does not run. In other words, no sensible cooling and high outdoor dew points.
regards Teddy Bear
Edit, I get what you're saying. We haven't had any cool damp evenings this summer. My house is old and leaky so it would definitely be higher without AC running.
 
I don't really buy the mold and mites stick, but in my house at least, leaving the fan on does keep humidity higher. This summer I've actually done both to see what difference it makes, and with the fan on auto, my house will stay around 40% (according to my Sensi stat, however accurate that is) give or take a few clicks. If I leave the fan on, it will be up around 50-55%. This obviously isn't scientific, just setting it for a couple days and seeing what the humidity is when I get home, but it's pretty consistant. My fan is variable speed ecm, so I usually keep it on 24/7 the rest of the year, but not in the summer.
Bet your area doesn't have the same outdoor humidity levels as Florida. So your house in Florida might be at 65 to 70% RH with the fan set to on, and only down to 55% with the fan in auto.
 
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