Any thoughts on what this product or one like it may do to the control industry?
Raspberry Pi
theoldman
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148 entry BDT table and two MS/TP trunks for $99? Unfortunately the word BTL doesn't appear anywhere, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Who's going to trust their site to this?
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Yeah, seems legit. While there is no way I'd trust any of my customers with this thing, I'm sure it will sell.
You get what you pay for.
You get what you pay for.
[SUP][/SUP]
Good day Maxburn,
$99 is a very low price when one considers the hardware needed... plus assembly costs... plus support costs ... plus warranty. Working backwards from these costs it makes it tough to see how this company can make a reasonable profit and sustain the product and their company. That being said, until one actually examines, analyzes, and tests the device one does not know if it is good value or not. Given the number of Asian products I have analyzed and dismembered I would say that there is a reason for the low cost.
As for the BTL listing... call me cynical, but simply having a BTL listing does not guarantee no issues with a particular product. BTL approval is a good thing but that approval was given for a particular hardware version and firmware version. As a product matures, etc changes happen and not a lot of companies resubmit for BTL on these modified devices. Personally I place more confidence in the company, their history, and their support than simply a BTL designation.
Cheers,
Sam
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I got one of them I have been testing at home as time permits. Only have ~15 devices at home, so its hard to pound the crap out of it. Seems to work fine so far as I can load it up. Just using a Jace to poll the crap out of the devices.
Off memory the only thing that seemed shady is open SSH or telnet server with easy to guess creds. Haven't dug too deep into that rabbit whole, but one would think it wouldn't be there at all. Since you can get root access, you might be able to kill the process in the config and disable it completely.
No device object on the router itself, so you can't discover it. Everything else seems to work as expected.
Off memory the only thing that seemed shady is open SSH or telnet server with easy to guess creds. Haven't dug too deep into that rabbit whole, but one would think it wouldn't be there at all. Since you can get root access, you might be able to kill the process in the config and disable it completely.
No device object on the router itself, so you can't discover it. Everything else seems to work as expected.
Good day Amigo,
Understood. However, there are still costs associated with the product in terms of support or warranty. If they spend an hour+ with a customer via e-mails/phone calls, etc then their profit margin would be pretty small. If they have a warranty claim (i.e. send a replacement to a customer), then this will also eat into their margin. All I am saying is that this will affect their profit and so long term sustainability of the product, etc is what I question.
Cheers,
Sam
Good day Orion242,
Sounds good so far. Can you post a few pics of the internal hardware? I would be curious to see a bit of their design and see if they have any electrical transient protection in their power supply and RS-485 sections. The components used and design style would provide a clue as to the long term reliability of the device.
Cheers,
Sam
Good day Orion242,
Indeed, you are probably right. However, if one's expectations are not too high then there is value for this device. However, if it is something that is sold/deployed to a customer for 24/7/365 use then economically it may make better sense to perhaps spend more $$$ on a higher reliability device. For playing around or for applications or reliability etc is not a concern, then the price is certainly hard to beat.
Cheers,
Sam
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Man after my own heart....first thing I did before powering it up lol.
The core of the device is an off the shelf "IoT" module geared for security cameras.
BQ-R7620MN1 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...ance-camera-module-wireless-intelligent-control-module/1909671_32460057668.html
There is a STM32 that looks to be driving the 485 ports and interfacing with the main module. Must be offloading the tricky timing dependent stuff and the other module is dealing with the IP side.
485 ports use the ADM2483, so they are isolated. Both channels have TVS diodes and PTCs protecting them. They did pay attention to track clearances of both the top and bottom around the ADM2583s. Biasing voltage looks like its isolated as well, so some thought went into the design. Pair of tracks to the lower LED and the PTC looks like the closest spot between the 485 ports and the rest of the logic. Had plenty of room to move them further away...
Bit of crusty hand rework around the STM32 and the core module and all through whole parts look hand worked. Needs a bath in the ultrasonic. Guess that what's you get for free sample...fair enough.
Doesn't look too awful IMO, power supply is prob the weak point. Would like to hear your thoughts.
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For close to that amount you can get UL listing, BTL listing, full diagnostics, web server and a very reliable track record from another vendor. WiFi adapter would be extra....
When you add the I/O, now for very little more than your stated budget pricing you can get a device which can do BACnet, is multi-protocol with I/O, web server and built in graphics which is UL and BTL listed.
By the time you get your appropriate certifications you already could have bought something else a thousand times over.
MSTP is on the way out (if you are not located in China where things are really cheap). At the AHR show in Las Vegas nobody was talking about BACnet MSTP in their future plans.
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I can believe IP is replacing it but that's going to be a long ways down the road.
Good day Orion242,
Thanks for the picture and the groundwork! Great (or twisted) minds must think alike
The IoT module is interesting. The Processor is the typical high volume consumer grade processor used in a ton of Asian products. I have not used it myself and so I cannot comment on its quality/reliability. However, consumer grade devices tend to be not that robust. If they work they work well... if they don't... well you know the story. The Memory is fine, as the vendor (Winbond) is well known. I do see a Wifi interface, however, I do not see a Shield nor a FCC Clearance ID and so I would guess the module has not been submitted for FCC testing/clearance. This by itself does not mean it is crappy... just that it may or may not comply with radiated emission testing. This could be a problem, as the device may interfere with other wireless communication systems (Wifi, aircraft, police, etc)... if this does happen then one could get into hot water if there are interference issues and someone complains.
The input power supply looks to have some conducted emission suppression which is good. I cannot see any fusing, PTC, or a MOV on the input, although they could exist on the bottom side of the board.
The RS485 interfaces actually have some protection which is first I have seen in an Asian device. However, I would be a bit skeptical of the AD2483 devices, as they may be counterfeit. The AD2483's are great parts, but are not cheap about $3.50 US in quantities of 1000... and so 2 on would be $7 US on a $99 retail board. It is possible they have a supplier that gets them in huge volumes, but that would be reaching. It is also possible that the devices could have been salvaged from some discarded equipment (happens a lot) or are indeed counterfeit. Sadly, the amount of counterfeit parts available is absolutely staggering. Another interesting thing is that it looks as if the RS485 interfaces do not include a reference connection. This could be a problem for reliability or long run connectivity issues.
The stuff around the STM32 looks to be solder flux residue. Most likely this is from some rework the board after assembly (i.e. perhaps some of the components had solder bridges, etc). I would question why they did not clean this off? I say this, as flux tends to be acidic and over time can cause electrical issues, etc. My guess is that they are/were trying to keep assembly costs as low as possible and so they simply ignored this additional cleaning step... which would indicate that assembly quality was not a primary concern.
The only other point I notice is the PCB quality and layer count. The PCB quality looks about average and looks to be only two layers. A average quality PCB means the vendor does average work... and so the quality of the traces (over/under etch) may vary between PCB batches or even on the same PCB and so there could be inconsistent device operation because of it. Given the frequencies present in their design, a 4 Layer+ board would be almost a given in order to have a quality design, but also to meet governmental radiated emission levels. In even small volumes the price difference between a 2L and 4L is small. I suspect that radiated emission levels was not a concern and so using a 4L was not design requirement.
As you said, it is not a overly bad PCB/design, but certainly reflects the price point of the product.
Thanks again for the pic!
Cheers,
Sam
Good day MaxBurn,
I am with you on this. RS485 is not going away anytime soon.
Indeed, embedding Ethernet is getting a lot less expensive these days, but it has a number of field-use limitations. That being said all connectivity options have their merits ... and weaknesses and so you what is best for the application.
Cheers,
Sam
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I'm sorry, but I don't believe that is correct anymore unless your line restricts you and you intentionally stick with it. IP jobs are all I see and I can point to thousands of controllers installed. The other thing is no more licensed middleware boxes, which is likely another thing you would have a hard time seeing if you are mired in MSTP. Look no farther than the costs of this hardware you are discussing.
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The other thing of course is all the manufacturers are trying as hard as possible to get to IP.
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Yea, the LON guys all said the same thing at one time too.
IP ain't happening around here. It might eventually. But not now and not by any of my competition. Too costly with no ROI. No one is re-stringing their BAS networks.
Oh, and one mfgr's middleware is another's automation server or visualization software.
Oh, and one mfgr's middleware is another's automation server or visualization software.
Good day Betterduck,
Firstly you can believe whatever you wish to be correct, as it is not my place to convince you either way. If you are seeing all your customers and projects demanding IP and are selling your IP products, then all the power to you. But to assume the reason why others may think different because of their "line" (i.e. because their "line" does not have IP), is simply incorrect and uninformed. Perhaps it may be best for your to start another thread on this topic if you wish to debate it.
Cheers,
Sam
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If I'm not mistaken this device is in fact supporting IP?
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