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SyNtAxx

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
hello,


I have a trane xl15i (3 ton) unit that seems to defrost when it is warm out 40* and higher (no visible ice) and not so much when its cold and needed. I've placed a service call and the technician said the defrost sensor needs replacing. However, the ambient sensor (black) and the defrost sensor (yellow) had already been replaced along with the Defrost control board. The part that was indicated as needing to be replaced when I traced wires and checked wiring schematic was "Trane THT2183 240V SPST High Temperature Stat" What role does that play in a defrost cycle if any?

Some additional information. The heat pump provides plenty of heat (register temps ~ 85*) for the house with out the use of the 15k strips. Infact they are almost never on except in very cold conditions. I have tested/validated they do in-fact come on with a amp meter when called for, so I know they are working.

I guess before I agree to the replacement of the part and labor I'd like to know what that part does, and if its the solution to the problem.

Thanks.
 
I have a trane xl15i (3 ton) unit

The part that was indicated as needing to be replaced when I traced wires and checked wiring schematic was "Trane THT2183 240V SPST High Temperature Stat" What role does that play in a defrost cycle if any?

I guess before I agree to the replacement of the part and labor I'd like to know what that part does, and if its the solution to the problem.
The thermostat you listed (THT02183) has nothing to do with the defrost cycle.

It is a thermostat that is used to turn ON and OFF the compressor crankcase heater.

If your tech is saying you need to replace this thermostat to get the unit to defrost correctly, tell him to have a nice day, and start looking for another technician.

Only the Outdoor Temperature Sensor and the Coil Sensor, in conjunction with the Defrost Control Board, control the timing of the defrost cycle.
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
Sorry for the long delay in communication. I was away and unable to answer. Today I again noticed the heat pump in defrost mode, again with no/zero trace of ice or frost. This is the 2nd month now I've received an electric bill over 400$ I'm not sure where to go at this point. Ambient(black)\Defrost (yellow) sensors and Defrost Control board are new. The unit makes great heat with out the strips so it doesn't seem to me the unit is low on charge. I'm not a pro, but the symptoms don't seem to match a low charge. Seems something electronic is causing the unit to think its iced up.

I've also noticed/reinforced the observation that it only behaves this way (unneeded defrost) when the outside temperature is more temperate. For example today it was 43* when I took notice to the defrost cycle. I was right there when it kicked on so it is not like i walked in on it and missed the ice parade. Just doesn't add up, except for the bills. Any additional thoughts ?

Thanks.
 
Defrost sensor is located in the correct location? to me if you already replaced those three parts, and the sensor is mounted in the correct position possible your refrigerant charge is off or your OD metering device is not throttling 100% correctly, or a very slight restriction in the drier ( do not know if you have one or two driers ) changing the temperature of your tubing enough to initiate a defrost.

You mention 85 degree discharge air temperature, but you do not mention the room temperature , @ 40+ degree outdoor temperature to me you should easily be over 20 + degree temperature difference between supply and room. Hopefully your return duct is sealed tightly. If your positive your 15 KW is only coming on only during very cold weather, then to me it's coming on during defrost , your electric rate seems high for only running 1st stage Heat Pump only,

What is the history of your HP compared to last year? Where you paying the same monthly charge ,give or take last year?

The only thing I would recommend is when you get into the warmer months I would have a competent Tech. Fimiliar with how a Trane XL 15 works and have them check the refrigerant charge according to subcooling or superheat or whatever Trane recommends to adjust and check the charge. You look to be a detailed oriented person, and you can download the install guide to get a heads up as to what Trane recommends for sub cooling before you call .The base line sub cooling temperature that Trane recommends may be located on the outdoor unit electrical data plate.
 
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What are your electric bills when no heat or cooling is needed or minimal? As Joey said 85° at 40°+ outdoor temp seems low. The only time I have ever seen a Trane defrost around 40° is during foggy/drizzly weather, but even then it is not often. In order to have a $400 electric bill with no back up heat on the unit would have to be defrosting all the time. Do you ever see it initiate or terminate defrost?
 
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Discussion starter · #8 ·
Defrost sensor is located in the correct location? to me if you already replaced those three parts, and the sensor is mounted in the correct position possible your refrigerant charge is off or your OD metering device is not throttling 100% correctly, or a very slight restriction in the drier ( do not know if you have one or two driers ) changing the temperature of your tubing enough to initiate a defrost.

You mention 85 degree discharge air temperature, but you do not mention the room temperature , @ 40+ degree outdoor temperature to me you should easily be over 20 + degree temperature difference between supply and room. Hopefully your return duct is sealed tightly. If your positive your 15 KW is only coming on only during very cold weather, then to me it's coming on during defrost , your electric rate seems high for only running 1st stage Heat Pump only,

What is the history of your HP compared to last year? Where you paying the same monthly charge ,give or take last year?

The only thing I would recommend is when you get into the warmer months I would have a competent Tech. Fimiliar with how a Trane XL 15 works and have them check the refrigerant charge according to subcooling or superheat or whatever Trane recommends to adjust and check the charge. You look to be a detailed oriented person, and you can download the install guide to get a heads up as to what Trane recommends for sub cooling before you call .The base line sub cooling temperature that Trane recommends may be located on the outdoor unit electrical data plate.
Bazooka, firstly I'd like to thank you for your professional response. The defrost sensor (yellow) is mounted low on the coil set on a pipe that has a copper 'bell' sort of brazed onto it. The defrost sensor is nice and snug in that housing, same as the previous sensor it replaced. As for as the drier is concerned, I only see a single large Grey Drier unit outside on the line set midway between the egress of the house and ingress into the outside unit housing.

Sorry, I did forget to mention the inside house temperature. The house is set between 68/70* (permanent hold) I work from home so , I set and forget the thermostat. The main supply and return trunk(s) are encased in drywall, however first thing I did when i moved in the house was find all the return feeds and seal them up with aluminum HVAC tape. They used the cavities in between the floor joists in some cases. They did foam seal the insides of those runs but not the sheet metal they used to box the runs, that is what I sealed.

I verified on multiple times with a clamp meter that heat package is only coming on with call for aux heat when it is very cold (~15* F or below). I agree that the elevated utility would be tied to the frequent calls for defrost when not needed (no visible ice AND temperate).

I've checked my rates they are the same for this and last year.

February, Most current bill: 409.00$

Used: 3,005 KW
Daily Usage: 103.6 KW
avg Daily temp: 35*

Last year same month/cycle:

Used: 2823 KW
Daily Usage: 97.3 kw
Avg Daily temp: 29*

January 2016 bill: 420$

Total Usage: 3142 kw
Avg Daily Usage: 89.8Kw
Avg temp: 42* F

Last year Same Time:

Total Usage: 2674 kw
Avg Daily: 76.4 kw
Avg Daily Temp: 36* F

So, you can see it was colder last year and I used LESS energy and rate are the same. February had 6 shorter billing days so that basically accounts for the small difference in that bill.
I can hear when the unit fires up as it has a distinct sound when in heat mode vs cool. When i'm on the first floor I can tell when it sin defrost because I don't hear the fan on the unit spool up, as it come sup to speed gradually and whirs. When I don't hear it I go see if its in defrost, and most typically it is as the fan isn't engaged as it shouldn't be in beginning of defrost.

I thank you for your honest feedback. I'm not a HVAC pro, but i'm not a dummy either. I was reasonably confident the defrost cycle was initiated and controlled by the defrost sensor (yellow) the ambient sensor (black) and the Defrost control board. When the tech pointed out that additional sensor I needed to investigate. At first it seemed plausible because the sensor he pointed out is spring clamped to the refrigerant line inside the coil next to the compressor. I looked at the service papers for the unit and did not see that part listed as defrost, but as a high temp thermostat base don the wiring and schematics. But again not being a pro, i'd thought i'd investigate.


Nick
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
What are your electric bills when no heat or cooling is needed or minimal? As Joey said 85° at 40°+ outdoor temp seems low. The only time I have ever seen a Trane defrost around 40° is during foggy/drizzly weather, but even then it is not often. In order to have a $400 electric bill with no back up heat on the unit would have to be defrosting all the time. Do you ever see it initiate or terminate defrost?



See my reply and original post for symptoms. But yes I can and do watch it defrost incorrectly. I work from home so I can heat when heat comes on as it has a distinct sound in heating mode vs cooling. Last year April was 160$ and May was 125$ and October was 134$ and October 2014 was 92$. Most expensive heating bill last year was 379$ and it was February.

Nick
 
I personally think your still low on your supply temperature to return @40+ OD degree ( 85 degree w/69 return ) unless your taking your reading far from your indoor coil and your moving a ton of air across your coil. As as example my 11 year old split HP is a R22 and its 42 degree OD temp. now with a 68 degree room/return air my supply air temp. ( at the closet register ) is 91 giving me 23 difference.

I came back from a Preventive Mainanance check from a elderly customer today 1 year old split R410A HP , granted he keeps the room temperature at 75 and the OD temperature was 46 at the time , he had 102 degree supply air temperature or a 27 degree difference.

Somewhere here someone posted aprox. Temperature diff. At different OD temperature assuming a certain indoor temp. If I remember even at 30 degree OD temperature it stated somewhere around 20 degree give or take.

I still would have your system checked for subcooling to manufacture recommendation during the warmer weather in cool mode.

Those monetary figures you gave where they for just the HP running or is that the total monthly bill including all utilities?

I'm not firmilar with Trane XL 15 HP ( as I do not carry that brand ) but it would not be uncommon to have a factory installed drier in between the coil and outer sheet metal panels , looks more like a giant bullet type drier. If indeed there is an factory installed drier already then to me the one on your liquid line is an extra. I installed a American Standard 14 SEER HP last year and what I thought was a discharge muffler ( downstream of the compressor a few inches ) as I read the install guide to my surprise it was actually a filter drier, made specifically to be mounted on the hot gas line. If you have what looks like a discharge muffler ( color is black ) on your unit, ( as Trane and AS are basically the same ) quite possibly its a filter drier. Not that it's bad that you possible may have two driers , but not really needed if that is the case.
 
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Discussion starter · #11 ·
I personally think your still low on your supply temperature to return @40+ OD degree ( 85 degree w/69 return ) unless your taking your reading far from your indoor coil and your moving a ton of air across your coil. As as example my 11 year old split HP is a R22 and its 42 degree OD temp. now with a 68 degree room/return air my supply air temp. ( at the closet register ) is 91 giving me 23 difference.

I came back from a Preventive Mainanance check from a elderly customer today 1 year old split R410A HP , granted he keeps the room temperature at 75 and the OD temperature was 46 at the time , he had 102 degree supply air temperature or a 27 degree difference.

Somewhere here someone posted aprox. Temperature diff. At different OD temperature assuming a certain indoor temp. If I remember even at 30 degree OD temperature it stated somewhere around 20 degree give or take.

I still would have your system checked for subcooling to manufacture recommendation during the warmer weather in cool mode.

Those monetary figures you gave where they for just the HP running or is that the total monthly bill including all utilities?

I'm not firmilar with Trane XL 15 HP ( as I do not carry that brand ) but it would not be uncommon to have a factory installed drier in between the coil and outer sheet metal panels , looks more like a giant bullet type drier. If indeed there is an factory installed drier already then to me the one on your liquid line is an extra. I installed a American Standard 14 SEER HP last year and what I thought was a discharge muffler ( downstream of the compressor a few inches ) as I read the install guide to my surprise it was actually a filter drier, made specifically to be mounted on the hot gas line. If you have what looks like a discharge muffler ( color is black ) on your unit, ( as Trane and AS are basically the same ) quite possibly its a filter drier. Not that it's bad that you possible may have two driers , but not really needed if that is the case.
For the cost figures, that represents all electrical usage in the house. All lighting is LED, and normal usage of range/washer/dryer. It is only myself and my wife along with a 1.5 year old in the house. We are very meticulous about turning lights etc off. I apologize, the location for the reading of the heated air is at the register, which is 12-15' away from the indoor coil. That run is also not insulated. I can take a reading tomorrow at the indoor coil and get a reading, i'm confident I would gain those 5* back or better. I'll take a closer look on the outdoor unit to see if I can locate a 2nd drier. Again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

NIck
 
For the cost figures, that represents all electrical usage in the house. All lighting is LED, and normal usage of range/washer/dryer. It is only myself and my wife along with a 1.5 year old in the house. We are very meticulous about turning lights etc off. I apologize, the location for the reading of the heated air is at the register, which is 12-15' away from the indoor coil. That run is also not insulated. I can take a reading tomorrow at the indoor coil and get a reading, i'm confident I would gain those 5* back or better. I'll take a closer look on the outdoor unit to see if I can locate a 2nd drier. Again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

NIck
For the cost figures, that represents all electrical usage in the house. All lighting is LED, and normal usage of range/washer/dryer. It is only myself and my wife along with a 1.5 year old in the house. We are very meticulous about turning lights etc off. I apologize, the location for the reading of the heated air is at the register, which is 12-15' away from the indoor coil. That run is also not insulated. I can take a reading tomorrow at the indoor coil and get a reading, i'm confident I would gain those 5* back or better. I'll take a closer look on the outdoor unit to see if I can locate a 2nd drier. Again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

NIck
The reading I took ( at the nearest register,originally ) after running my HP for 15 minutes which is aprox. 10'- 11' from my coil when I took the temperature again at that register then moved my accurate thermometer to about 2' above the indoor coil I picked up one extra degree. Which would give me 24 degree temperature diff. On my 11 year old unit. I would be impressed if you can make up that 5 degree by first taking a reading at that register ( after system been running 15 minutes ) then moving your accurate thermometer from that register to 1'-2' or 3' away from the indoor coil and get 5 degree, I see one or maybe two degree which still gives you aprox.17-18 degree temperature diff. at 40+* which to me is still low if your ductwork is sized correctly did they check your static pressure when they installed your system. But hey certainly I could be wrong about you not getting that 5 degree number.
 
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That defrost board uses algorithms taking into consideration ambient temp, coil temp, run time, and defrost time. Each time it defrosts it collects data to maximize run time and limit defrost time. If the unit is going into defrost a lot at 40° then either the fan is slowing/stopping or the unit has a refrigerant issue which could be low or a restriction which would make it act like it's low, i'm thinking like a bad TXV. All of these are costing you money, as in a $400 utility bill and could be damaging other components in your system. You need a good tech to diagnose it.

I have a 3 ton Trane heat pump in my shop, Feb bill was $177, Jan was $288. Daytime highs range from 20-70 with lows 5-30 over those months. The shop is a brick building 12" walls with 1.5" of insulation. The office is 1000 sq ft which the heat pump maintains 70° the rest of the shop is at 50° unless we are working in there with no insulation in the tile walls between the two.
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
Sorry for the delay in response. I have had the opportunity to take 2 seperate temperature reading on 2 seperate dates. Today, outside temp 40*, air temp at the blower unit 86*. Similar results from a week back, outside temp was 38* and air temp at the blower unit, 86*

Thanks,

Nick
 
The literature on that unit says it determines a need for defrost based on temp difference between the ambient sensor and coil temp sensor. Like others have said there could be a charge issue. But, it's not uncommon at all to see that unit and others run short defrost cycles with no visible frost accumulation. There could be nothing wrong at all.
 
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when was the last time the outdoor coil was cleaned ,ask the tech to compare the refrigerant level to the performace chart that should be inside the unit as it is possibly low on refrigerant or somthing else wrong
 
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