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ccraven66

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello,

I just had all the original HVAC systems for my home replaced with Lennox XP25 Heat Pumps and SL280V Furnaces.

These HP's are fantastic but we have been having one problem for the past 5 days. Controlling the humidity level in my home.

For the first couple weeks the units have been keeping the humidity between 48% & 51%, but over the past 5 days the humidity is holding between 56% & 60% day or night even though the humidity level is set for 50% on each iComfort thermostat.

Any suggestions as to what might be the cause and/or solution for this issue. Also, what area should be evaluated as the potential cause for this humidity control issue (equipment, duct work, home, etc.)

Thank you in advance for all your help.
 
Hello,

I just had all the original HVAC systems for my home replaced with Lennox XP25 Heat Pumps and SL280V Furnaces.

These HP's are fantastic but we have been having one problem for the past 5 days. Controlling the humidity level in my home.

For the first couple weeks the units have been keeping the humidity between 48% & 51%, but over the past 5 days the humidity is holding between 56% & 60% day or night even though the humidity level is set for 50% on each iComfort thermostat.

Any suggestions as to what might be the cause and/or solution for this issue. Also, what area should be evaluated as the potential cause for this humidity control issue (equipment, duct work, home, etc.)

Thank you in advance for all your help.
How does the outdoor temperature and humidity compare to what it was when you were getting 48 to 51% relative humidity in your home?

If it is considerably cooler outside the run time of your heat pump would be much less and it could be running short cycles which does not provide enough run time to do any amount of dehumidification.

You need a thermostat that will allow for a wider temperature differential spread, like a SWING adjustable thermostat. This will provide longer run time cycles and might help improve dehumidification.

Your home should be checked for its infiltration rate which should be reduced to .4 air changes per hour. In other words your home should be as well weatherized as is possible.

The duct system should be checked for any air leaks coming into the return or any air leaks in the supply duct system. Additionally, the install may not have been done with the proper best practices sequence procedures and therefore the system may not be operating at its peak performance level.

The blower should be operated on the cubic foot per minute rate of 350 CFM per ton of cooling. The heat pumps may be oversized for the actual heat-load conditions!
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
How does the outdoor temperature and humidity compare to what it was when you were getting 48 to 51% relative humidity in your home?

If it is considerably cooler outside the run time of your heat pump would be much less and it could be running short cycles which does not provide enough run time to do any amount of dehumidification.

You need a thermostat that will allow for a wider temperature differential spread, like a SWING adjustable thermostat. This will provide longer run time cycles and might help improve dehumidification.

Your home should be checked for its infiltration rate which should be reduced to .4 air changes per hour. In other words your home should be as well weatherized as is possible.

The duct system should be checked for any air leaks coming into the return or any air leaks in the supply duct system. Additionally, the install may not have been done with the proper best practices sequence procedures and therefore the system may not be operating at its peak performance level.

The blower should be operated on the cubic foot per minute rate of 350 CFM per ton of cooling. The heat pumps may be oversized for the actual heat-load conditions!
Udarrell,
Below are outside temp and humidity levels for those five days. The week before the days below, the temp and humidity levels were about the same.

9/19, high temp 83, humidity @ midnight 87% and 61% @ 11am

9/20, high temp 87, humidity @ midnight 97% and 71% @ 11am

9/21, high temp 75, humidity @ midnight 90% and 73% @ 11am

9/22, high temp 81, humidity @ midnight 97% and 71% @ 11am.

9/23, high temp will be about 83, humidity at midnight was 94% and is supposed to be 64% @ 11am.

In my home as of this post, home temp 74 and humidity level on all iComfort thermostats says 58%.

Thank you for any advice for solutions of corrections.
 
How does the outdoor temperature and humidity compare to what it was when you were getting 48 to 51% relative humidity in your home?

If it is considerably cooler outside the run time of your heat pump would be much less and it could be running short cycles which does not provide enough run time to do any amount of dehumidification.

You need a thermostat that will allow for a wider temperature differential spread, like a SWING adjustable thermostat. This will provide longer run time cycles and might help improve dehumidification.

Your home should be checked for its infiltration rate which should be reduced to .4 air changes per hour. In other words your home should be as well weatherized as is possible.

The duct system should be checked for any air leaks coming into the return or any air leaks in the supply duct system. Additionally, the install may not have been done with the proper best practices sequence procedures and therefore the system may not be operating at its peak performance level.

The blower should be operated on the cubic foot per minute rate of 350 CFM per ton of cooling. The heat pumps may be oversized for the actual heat-load conditions!
There is a high possibilty that this home is not get enough fresh air ventilation during calm winds and moderate temperatures.
Consider that amount of natural infiltration varies with the velocity of wind and the temperature difference outside verses inside. During most of the non winter, the natural venitlating is much lower than .4 ach and more like .05-.1 during calm winds.
With a 2,500 sqft. home with .4 ach is 130 cfm of fresh air with an outdoor dew point of 70^F, to maintain 75^F, 50%, 55^F dew point, you need to remove 3-4 lbs. of moisture per hour. How wide of dead band thermastat will you need? It is impossible with a small cooling load for any a/c to provide <50%RH during these conditions.
I suggest that supplemental dehumidificationis the only reasonable way of get to <50%RH during low/no cooling loads that the poster is describing.
Also, I suggest that .2 ach is adequate for fresh air during mild weather to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen. Also consider that occupants add moisture to the space in addition to the moisture in the fresh air. Any cool wet weather with dew points +60^F require 1-2 lbs. per hour dehumidification to maintain <50%RH.
Unoccupied homes getting adequate fresh air change with have indoor dew points that similar to outside dew points when unoccupied. Occupants will raise the indoor dew point during all seasons. An occupant humidifyies the indoor about .5 lbs. per hour. Chances are that you need a humidifier during cold weather and a dehumidifier during moderate weather and adequate air change.
We would do better in getting posters to think in dew points compare to %RH.
I also think that a/c coil temps (evaporaters) are better measures of removing moisture from homes. If you want <50%RH at 75^F, you need a <45-50^F coiling coil temp. Measuring air flow is difficult even in lab conditions.
Short cycling a/cs do not remove significant moisture.
A whole dehu maintains <50%RH without any cooling.
I do agree with much of your post, but leave view that one should expect <50%RH with adequate fresh air, low/no cooling load and normal occupancy.
Regards TB
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
There is a high possibilty that this home is not get enough fresh air ventilation during calm winds and moderate temperatures.
Consider that amount of natural infiltration varies with the velocity of wind and the temperature difference outside verses inside. During most of the non winter, the natural venitlating is much lower than .4 ach and more like .05-.1 during calm winds.
With a 2,500 sqft. home with .4 ach is 130 cfm of fresh air with an outdoor dew point of 70^F, to maintain 75^F, 50%, 55^F dew point, you need to remove 3-4 lbs. of moisture per hour. How wide of dead band thermastat will you need? It is impossible with a small cooling load for any a/c to provide <50%RH during these conditions.
I suggest that supplemental dehumidificationis the only reasonable way of get to <50%RH during low/no cooling loads that the poster is describing.
Also, I suggest that .2 ach is adequate for fresh air during mild weather to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen. Also consider that occupants add moisture to the space in addition to the moisture in the fresh air. Any cool wet weather with dew points +60^F require 1-2 lbs. per hour dehumidification to maintain <50%RH.
Unoccupied homes getting adequate fresh air change with have indoor dew points that similar to outside dew points when unoccupied. Occupants will raise the indoor dew point during all seasons. An occupant humidifyies the indoor about .5 lbs. per hour. Chances are that you need a humidifier during cold weather and a dehumidifier during moderate weather and adequate air change.
We would do better in getting posters to think in dew points compare to %RH.
I also think that a/c coil temps (evaporaters) are better measures of removing moisture from homes. If you want <50%RH at 75^F, you need a <45-50^F coiling coil temp. Measuring air flow is difficult even in lab conditions.
Short cycling a/cs do not remove significant moisture.
A whole dehu maintains <50%RH without any cooling.
I do agree with much of your post, but leave view that one should expect <50%RH with adequate fresh air, low/no cooling load and normal occupancy.
Regards TB
TB,
Thank you. So, it's your recommendation that I will need a wholehome dehumidifier such as the Lennox Humiditrol or another another brand wholehome dehumidifier to maintain 50% RH or less (ie: 55^ dew point) as well as a humidifier during winter months. Would I need to put it on just the main system for my home or all three systems (main level, second floor, basement)? Thanks again.
 
ccraven66. What size heat pump do you have? Did they size it for the cooling load, or the heating load?

Thats an inverter compressor in it, so it can modulate its capacity to match the load of the house, unlike single stage units. And much closer then a 2 stage can.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
ccraven66. What size heat pump do you have? Did they size it for the cooling load, or the heating load?

Thats an inverter compressor in it, so it can modulate its capacity to match the load of the house, unlike single stage units. And much closer then a 2 stage can.
Beenthere,
Detailed room by room manual j was border line 3.5-ton, so main level unit is 4-ton since no 3.5-ton offered in higher SEER units from Lennox.
 
Beenthere,
Detailed room by room manual j was border line 3.5-ton, so main level unit is 4-ton since no 3.5-ton offered in higher SEER units from Lennox.
It should be doing better with your humidity. May not be 100% charged right. Call the installing contractor back to double check it.

How many zones.
 
Beenthere
Second floor has its own system. Main level has its own system. Basement has its own system.
All are XP25 HP with SL280V Furnaces.
Possible that either the main or second floor unit is not working right. And not able to remove as much moisture as it should.
 
TB,
Thank you. So, it's your recommendation that I will need a wholehome dehumidifier such as the Lennox Humiditrol or another another brand wholehome dehumidifier to maintain 50% RH or less (ie: 55^ dew point) as well as a humidifier during winter months. Would I need to put it on just the main system for my home or all three systems (main level, second floor, basement)? Thanks again.
NOt the Humiditrol, which is an inside condenser that extends the runtime of the a/c. This is not ideal, because of the retained moisture on the large a/c at the end of the cycle. The retained moisture re-wets the home at the end of the dehumidifying cycle.
The whole house dehumidifier is 70 pint per day dehumidifier that remove 4-8 pints per kwh. The highest efficiency dehus are Ultra-Aires. There are others.
I would suggest the Ultra-Aire 70H connected to the a/c in the wettest, most critical area of the home. This is usually the basement if finished. If the basement is not finished, a free standing dehu in the space plus a whole house dehu connected to most critical finished space.
Start with one ducted whole house unit and monitor the results. This is all you may need.
Regards TB
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
NOt the Humiditrol, which is an inside condenser that extends the runtime of the a/c. This is not ideal, because of the retained moisture on the large a/c at the end of the cycle. The retained moisture re-wets the home at the end of the dehumidifying cycle.
The whole house dehumidifier is 70 pint per day dehumidifier that remove 4-8 pints per kwh. The highest efficiency dehus are Ultra-Aires. There are others.
I would suggest the Ultra-Aire 70H connected to the a/c in the wettest, most critical area of the home. This is usually the basement if finished. If the basement is not finished, a free standing dehu in the space plus a whole house dehu connected to most critical finished space.
Start with one ducted whole house unit and monitor the results. This is all you may need.
Regards TB
TB,
Thank you. If I install this on my main level system, is it sufficient for 2000+ Sq ft?
 
In the end, you will need supplemental dehumidification for periods of low/no cooling loads during high outdoor dew points.
But lets cover a couple basics. During high cooling loads, your a/c should be able to maintain <50%RH. The basics are the fan should be in the "auto" mode to avoid rapid re-evaporating moisture off the cooling coil back into the space. Also, the air flow over the cooling coil should be adjusted to have the cooling coil cold enough to remove significant amounts of moisture. The cooling coil should be <48^F temp to remove moisture. This can be check by measuring the supply air temp/%RH/^F dew point at the supply grill. Two hours of continuous +75^F cooling load with this setup should get <50%RH. If you your a/c is not able to maintain <50%RH during high cooling loads, adding a whole house is not the place to start. The dehumidifier should only be needed when the a/c is cycling on/off.
I gather from your post that during high cooling loads, your a/c maintains <50%RH. After you know the a/c removes moisture during high cooling loads, add a small Ultra-Aire 70H some place to your home.
Keep us posted.
Regards TB
 
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