I have a 19XRV with a suspected condenser tube leak, just out of warranty.
Anybody else seeing anything like this?
Anybody else seeing anything like this?
19XRV condenser leak
Randy S.
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
I have not seen any problems with the xr/xrv. I hope by saying that I wont start. Probally time for an eddy current and they can probally say why it is leaking if it is. if it is a manufacture problem you still might get something done through warranty.
Just a suspect at this point...
Appears to be losing gas. No external leaks. High evap approach alerts.
Nothing sniffable at any chilled side air vents.
My D Tek got about three lights in the tower sump.
Chlorinated city water, of course. And a bromine biocide.
As far as I know, neither chlorine or bromine should trigger the D Tek.
Time to drain the condenser and pop the blank end, then a careful look see.
Appears to be losing gas. No external leaks. High evap approach alerts.
Nothing sniffable at any chilled side air vents.
My D Tek got about three lights in the tower sump.
Chlorinated city water, of course. And a bromine biocide.
As far as I know, neither chlorine or bromine should trigger the D Tek.
Time to drain the condenser and pop the blank end, then a careful look see.
Never seen tube leaks on a 19XR. Would not suspect the condenser because of DTek going off in the sump of a tower. Your leak detector detects Halogen gases two of which are bromine and chlorine.
If I did suspect a condenser leak I would isolate the bundle, let it sit overnight and check it the following day. If you get a strong indication, eddy test and soak down the tube ends with soap bubbles to check the tube rolls.
You said you had a wide evap approach. Are ch wtr flows good? Could evap tubes be dirty? You said machine just came out of warranty - did the contractor flush out the system after installation? If the problem is a leak as you suspect, adding additional refrigerant would cause a change in approach. Did you check the evap sensor for accuracy?
If I did suspect a condenser leak I would isolate the bundle, let it sit overnight and check it the following day. If you get a strong indication, eddy test and soak down the tube ends with soap bubbles to check the tube rolls.
You said you had a wide evap approach. Are ch wtr flows good? Could evap tubes be dirty? You said machine just came out of warranty - did the contractor flush out the system after installation? If the problem is a leak as you suspect, adding additional refrigerant would cause a change in approach. Did you check the evap sensor for accuracy?
Also suspicious of the D Tek reading in the tower
The manuf. claims that it ONLY detects refrigerants.
Yeah, right.
Been through flows multiple times. Trimmed charge once, and now back to high approach. Not a good sign.
Time to isolate, drain, and sniff.
The manuf. claims that it ONLY detects refrigerants.
Yeah, right.
Been through flows multiple times. Trimmed charge once, and now back to high approach. Not a good sign.
Time to isolate, drain, and sniff.
Joined
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534 Posts
Like popop says, isolate the bundle. Close the water valves tight. Drain the water side pressure down to zero psi. Don't drain the water out, yet. Secure and leave set overnight. If your water side valves hold tight, your pressure goes up to R-134a pressure/temperature equivalent, AND , you have R-134a vapors on the water side, you have a tube side leak. Time to drop the heads and look for a leaking tube and/or tube sheet joint.
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534 Posts
Randy S: High evap approach alerts.
Evaporator tubes clean? I had a couple chillers on thermal staorage that slimed up the evaporator tubes. Approach went high and several techs though it was loosing refrigerant until the tubes were brushed. Now we know the tubes need to be brushed every year.
The only way to find out for sure if your charge is low is to pump it out and weigh it.
Evaporator tubes clean? I had a couple chillers on thermal staorage that slimed up the evaporator tubes. Approach went high and several techs though it was loosing refrigerant until the tubes were brushed. Now we know the tubes need to be brushed every year.
The only way to find out for sure if your charge is low is to pump it out and weigh it.
Don't rule out the cooler tubes also!
As a side note,I wouldn't put too much faith in the D Tek leak detector, they've failed me and other mechanics more than once. I highly recommend the H-10G ( I think made by Bacharach now) leak detector,especially for 134a. Calibrate it, and put in the "small" leak setting (for 134a always) its way more accurate, in my opinion. 400 bucks, but worth every penny!
Anyway, you've ruled out all external joints, including all relief valves, guide vane shaft seal (behind the black plastic chain guard), and motor lead terminals ?
Next, if you want to pick the condenser first, I'd secure water valves, drain tube bundle, and drop heads on BOTH sides, and remove the division plate. Next, with some compressed air or Nitrogen, I'd blow out the tubes of water real good, possibly a few times until they're pretty dry, no excess water. Next purchase #2 rubber stoppers, and "cork" lightly both ends of the tubes. Come in the next day, see if any popped out. If not, sniff one by one, each and every tube and see if your leak detector goes off. The leakers, if any, will have to be faced to the end (tube) sheet, and plugged with brass plugs on both sides, and re-leak checked. If no luck with the condenser, then repeat with the cooler tubes. Also, I'd spray alot of bubble solution (such as Big Blue) on the tube sheet, and see if any bubbling appears around the tubes and the sheet, maybe there is a bad tube roll. Lots of fun!!!
Ok a couple of more things: High approach, do you have the right cooler and condenser water pressure drops?
Also, the right charge is critical in these machines, especially for part load oil reclaming. Make sure your suction temp is design at full load, according to the ARI performance design specs. ( as well as those water flows). Also, at part load, when the guide vane position is at 3% or less, you should see the vertical sightglass on the oil reclaim showing a foamy flow of refrigerant and oil mix, not a full glass, but spurts. If its full, remove some refrigerant, if its empty, start adding until you see it, watch, it appears suddenly! Thats the proper way to 'trim" a charge on an 19XR/XRV. Also, make sure your cooler tubes are clean,just something to think about, some people think their chilled water system is fairly clean, when in fact it is not, and they overlook the possibility of dirty tubes. I've had big cooler approaches on machines, and they weren't low on charge, the cooler tubes were very dirty! Also, these machines are very sensitive to dirty tubes, especially in the condenser. Also, at full load, watch your discharge superheat, make sure its over 100 degrees at least. Lastly, there could be excess oil in the charge. Did you ever have to add oil to the compressor? If the oil isn't reclaiming because of improper charging, it may be "stuck" in the cooler,laying on top of the refrigerant, causing the high approach. Also, check the isolation ball valve that separates the liquid line from the condenser to the cooler, and make sure its fully open! A possibility, but not too common is a stuck linear (coffee can) float, but usually if they stick, they stick real bad, causing the machine to shut down on a low refrigerant alarm. I would check all of this before blaming the tube leak, because it is possible, but not very probable, and that job is the last thing you want to do, when you can just check these things first. One more thing, "zero" out the evap. transducer, it could be out of range, giving you a bad reading. How- to is in the Carrier Start Up, Maint, and Operation manual. (And hopefully the VFD is running right, that a whole 'nother issue in itself. Just figure I'd mention that, but don't worry about that yet.
If you know any of this, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just putting all the possibilites out there. Good luck! Let us know what you find!
Shop Hound, you're right about XR's. Keep the tubes real clean, cooler tower water the better, and you have a trouble free, very low maintenance machine for years! A little noisy, but worth it! No low pressure air leaks to worry about, or open drive seals to leak! End of the season, clean the cond tubes, leak check, take an oil sample...done! Ready for next season!
As a side note,I wouldn't put too much faith in the D Tek leak detector, they've failed me and other mechanics more than once. I highly recommend the H-10G ( I think made by Bacharach now) leak detector,especially for 134a. Calibrate it, and put in the "small" leak setting (for 134a always) its way more accurate, in my opinion. 400 bucks, but worth every penny!
Anyway, you've ruled out all external joints, including all relief valves, guide vane shaft seal (behind the black plastic chain guard), and motor lead terminals ?
Next, if you want to pick the condenser first, I'd secure water valves, drain tube bundle, and drop heads on BOTH sides, and remove the division plate. Next, with some compressed air or Nitrogen, I'd blow out the tubes of water real good, possibly a few times until they're pretty dry, no excess water. Next purchase #2 rubber stoppers, and "cork" lightly both ends of the tubes. Come in the next day, see if any popped out. If not, sniff one by one, each and every tube and see if your leak detector goes off. The leakers, if any, will have to be faced to the end (tube) sheet, and plugged with brass plugs on both sides, and re-leak checked. If no luck with the condenser, then repeat with the cooler tubes. Also, I'd spray alot of bubble solution (such as Big Blue) on the tube sheet, and see if any bubbling appears around the tubes and the sheet, maybe there is a bad tube roll. Lots of fun!!!
Ok a couple of more things: High approach, do you have the right cooler and condenser water pressure drops?
Also, the right charge is critical in these machines, especially for part load oil reclaming. Make sure your suction temp is design at full load, according to the ARI performance design specs. ( as well as those water flows). Also, at part load, when the guide vane position is at 3% or less, you should see the vertical sightglass on the oil reclaim showing a foamy flow of refrigerant and oil mix, not a full glass, but spurts. If its full, remove some refrigerant, if its empty, start adding until you see it, watch, it appears suddenly! Thats the proper way to 'trim" a charge on an 19XR/XRV. Also, make sure your cooler tubes are clean,just something to think about, some people think their chilled water system is fairly clean, when in fact it is not, and they overlook the possibility of dirty tubes. I've had big cooler approaches on machines, and they weren't low on charge, the cooler tubes were very dirty! Also, these machines are very sensitive to dirty tubes, especially in the condenser. Also, at full load, watch your discharge superheat, make sure its over 100 degrees at least. Lastly, there could be excess oil in the charge. Did you ever have to add oil to the compressor? If the oil isn't reclaiming because of improper charging, it may be "stuck" in the cooler,laying on top of the refrigerant, causing the high approach. Also, check the isolation ball valve that separates the liquid line from the condenser to the cooler, and make sure its fully open! A possibility, but not too common is a stuck linear (coffee can) float, but usually if they stick, they stick real bad, causing the machine to shut down on a low refrigerant alarm. I would check all of this before blaming the tube leak, because it is possible, but not very probable, and that job is the last thing you want to do, when you can just check these things first. One more thing, "zero" out the evap. transducer, it could be out of range, giving you a bad reading. How- to is in the Carrier Start Up, Maint, and Operation manual. (And hopefully the VFD is running right, that a whole 'nother issue in itself. Just figure I'd mention that, but don't worry about that yet.
If you know any of this, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just putting all the possibilites out there. Good luck! Let us know what you find!
Shop Hound, you're right about XR's. Keep the tubes real clean, cooler tower water the better, and you have a trouble free, very low maintenance machine for years! A little noisy, but worth it! No low pressure air leaks to worry about, or open drive seals to leak! End of the season, clean the cond tubes, leak check, take an oil sample...done! Ready for next season!
Don't rule out the cooler tubes also!
As a side note,I wouldn't put too much faith in the D Tek leak detector, they've failed me and other mechanics more than once. I highly recommend the H-10G ( I think made by Bacharach now) leak detector,especially for 134a. Calibrate it, and put in the "small" leak setting (for 134a always) its way more accurate, in my opinion. 400 bucks, but worth every penny!
Anyway, you've ruled out all external joints, including all relief valves, guide vane shaft seal (behind the black plastic chain guard), and motor lead terminals ?
Next, if you want to pick the condenser first, I'd secure water valves, drain tube bundle, and drop heads on BOTH sides, and remove the division plate. Next, with some compressed air or Nitrogen, I'd blow out the tubes of water real good, possibly a few times until they're pretty dry, no excess water. Next purchase #2 rubber stoppers, and "cork" lightly both ends of the tubes. Come in the next day, see if any popped out. If not, sniff one by one, each and every tube and see if your leak detector goes off. The leakers, if any, will have to be faced to the end (tube) sheet, and plugged with brass plugs on both sides, and re-leak checked. If no luck with the condenser, then repeat with the cooler tubes. Also, I'd spray alot of bubble solution (such as Big Blue) on the tube sheet, and see if any bubbling appears around the tubes and the sheet, maybe there is a bad tube roll. Lots of fun!!!
Ok a couple of more things: High approach, do you have the right cooler and condenser water pressure drops?
Also, the right charge is critical in these machines, especially for part load oil reclaming. Make sure your suction temp is design at full load, according to the ARI performance design specs. ( as well as those water flows). Also, at part load, when the guide vane position is at 3% or less, you should see the vertical sightglass on the oil reclaim showing a foamy flow of refrigerant and oil mix, not a full glass, but spurts. If its full, remove some refrigerant, if its empty, start adding until you see it, watch, it appears suddenly! Thats the proper way to 'trim" a charge on an 19XR/XRV. Also, make sure your cooler tubes are clean,just something to think about, some people think their chilled water system is fairly clean, when in fact it is not, and they overlook the possibility of dirty tubes. I've had big cooler approaches on machines, and they weren't low on charge, the cooler tubes were very dirty! Also, these machines are very sensitive to dirty tubes, especially in the condenser. Also, at full load, watch your discharge superheat, make sure its over 100 degrees at least. Lastly, there could be excess oil in the charge. Did you ever have to add oil to the compressor? If the oil isn't reclaiming because of improper charging, it may be "stuck" in the refrigerant, causing the high approach. Also, check the isolation ball valve that separates the liquid line from the condenser to the cooler, and make sure its fully open! A possibility, but not too common is a stuck linear (coffee can) float, but usually if they stick, they stick real bad, causing the machine to shut down on a low refrigerant alarm. I would check all of this before blaming the tubes, because it is possible, but not very probable.
If you know any of this, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just putting all the possibilites out there. Good luck! Let us know what you find!
Shop Hound, you're right about XR's. Keep the tubes real clean, cooler tower water the better, and you have a trouble free, very low maintenance machine for years! A little noisy, but worth it! No low pressure air leaks to worry about, or open drive seals to leak! End of the season, clean the cond tubes, leak check, take an oil sample...done! Ready for next season!
As a side note,I wouldn't put too much faith in the D Tek leak detector, they've failed me and other mechanics more than once. I highly recommend the H-10G ( I think made by Bacharach now) leak detector,especially for 134a. Calibrate it, and put in the "small" leak setting (for 134a always) its way more accurate, in my opinion. 400 bucks, but worth every penny!
Anyway, you've ruled out all external joints, including all relief valves, guide vane shaft seal (behind the black plastic chain guard), and motor lead terminals ?
Next, if you want to pick the condenser first, I'd secure water valves, drain tube bundle, and drop heads on BOTH sides, and remove the division plate. Next, with some compressed air or Nitrogen, I'd blow out the tubes of water real good, possibly a few times until they're pretty dry, no excess water. Next purchase #2 rubber stoppers, and "cork" lightly both ends of the tubes. Come in the next day, see if any popped out. If not, sniff one by one, each and every tube and see if your leak detector goes off. The leakers, if any, will have to be faced to the end (tube) sheet, and plugged with brass plugs on both sides, and re-leak checked. If no luck with the condenser, then repeat with the cooler tubes. Also, I'd spray alot of bubble solution (such as Big Blue) on the tube sheet, and see if any bubbling appears around the tubes and the sheet, maybe there is a bad tube roll. Lots of fun!!!
Ok a couple of more things: High approach, do you have the right cooler and condenser water pressure drops?
Also, the right charge is critical in these machines, especially for part load oil reclaming. Make sure your suction temp is design at full load, according to the ARI performance design specs. ( as well as those water flows). Also, at part load, when the guide vane position is at 3% or less, you should see the vertical sightglass on the oil reclaim showing a foamy flow of refrigerant and oil mix, not a full glass, but spurts. If its full, remove some refrigerant, if its empty, start adding until you see it, watch, it appears suddenly! Thats the proper way to 'trim" a charge on an 19XR/XRV. Also, make sure your cooler tubes are clean,just something to think about, some people think their chilled water system is fairly clean, when in fact it is not, and they overlook the possibility of dirty tubes. I've had big cooler approaches on machines, and they weren't low on charge, the cooler tubes were very dirty! Also, these machines are very sensitive to dirty tubes, especially in the condenser. Also, at full load, watch your discharge superheat, make sure its over 100 degrees at least. Lastly, there could be excess oil in the charge. Did you ever have to add oil to the compressor? If the oil isn't reclaiming because of improper charging, it may be "stuck" in the refrigerant, causing the high approach. Also, check the isolation ball valve that separates the liquid line from the condenser to the cooler, and make sure its fully open! A possibility, but not too common is a stuck linear (coffee can) float, but usually if they stick, they stick real bad, causing the machine to shut down on a low refrigerant alarm. I would check all of this before blaming the tubes, because it is possible, but not very probable.
If you know any of this, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just putting all the possibilites out there. Good luck! Let us know what you find!
Shop Hound, you're right about XR's. Keep the tubes real clean, cooler tower water the better, and you have a trouble free, very low maintenance machine for years! A little noisy, but worth it! No low pressure air leaks to worry about, or open drive seals to leak! End of the season, clean the cond tubes, leak check, take an oil sample...done! Ready for next season!
Didn't drop the heads in August
I did valve off both bundles, let is sit overnight, and no pressure increase.
Then I drained both down some and then let it sit the rest of the week. Only one of two machines is used on moderate loads, so letting it sit was no problem last week.
Still nothing. Nowhere. Also has a very sensitive MSA leak detector sniffing two points on each machine. Not a peep out of it either, and it goes off from the slightest service related poof of gas.
This machine got too warm last winter and lifted the reliefs. So we're all a bit antsy about it. Somebody apparently fat fingered the evap pump VFD and let the water get up to around 120F, high enough to lift the 165# reliefs.
As for trimming, one method I use is what you described. Been through the flows numerous times, and not seeing excessive superheat.
It'll get a good run this week and I'll see what happens...
I did valve off both bundles, let is sit overnight, and no pressure increase.
Then I drained both down some and then let it sit the rest of the week. Only one of two machines is used on moderate loads, so letting it sit was no problem last week.
Still nothing. Nowhere. Also has a very sensitive MSA leak detector sniffing two points on each machine. Not a peep out of it either, and it goes off from the slightest service related poof of gas.
This machine got too warm last winter and lifted the reliefs. So we're all a bit antsy about it. Somebody apparently fat fingered the evap pump VFD and let the water get up to around 120F, high enough to lift the 165# reliefs.
As for trimming, one method I use is what you described. Been through the flows numerous times, and not seeing excessive superheat.
It'll get a good run this week and I'll see what happens...
Joined
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534 Posts
This machine got too warm last winter and lifted the reliefs. .
The only way you will know for sure what your charge is. Pump it out and weigh it. You can get it at a good operating level with 17M's procedures by watching the oil return sight glasses at all load conditions, but you still won't know the exact charge. Not that you really need to know, but I always like to have a number I can put in my report.
The only way you will know for sure what your charge is. Pump it out and weigh it. You can get it at a good operating level with 17M's procedures by watching the oil return sight glasses at all load conditions, but you still won't know the exact charge. Not that you really need to know, but I always like to have a number I can put in my report.
Joined
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534 Posts
Pat it on the belly
Feel down around the condenser shell while it's running. From the hot discharge area down until you feel the "cooler" liquid level in the condenser. If it is low, you are short of refrigerant. If it is high, you are stacking refrigerant in the condenser. You know where to go from there.
Feel down around the condenser shell while it's running. From the hot discharge area down until you feel the "cooler" liquid level in the condenser. If it is low, you are short of refrigerant. If it is high, you are stacking refrigerant in the condenser. You know where to go from there.
Maybe some Metasysmucil?
I have 5 of these in various sizes, and the only one that doesn't occasionally have high evap approach alerts is the one on a tower that can't get below 70 on a warm day. So I have to wonder about the floating bucket "linear float" sometimes.
I still think I'm losing gas on the one, though. Just haven't found it, yet.
I have 5 of these in various sizes, and the only one that doesn't occasionally have high evap approach alerts is the one on a tower that can't get below 70 on a warm day. So I have to wonder about the floating bucket "linear float" sometimes.
I still think I'm losing gas on the one, though. Just haven't found it, yet.
Looks like motor terminals
Have isolated both bundles twice, let is set a week the last time, no pressure increase, nothing sniffable at the plug on the outlet section of the bundles.
Not a trace at any of the three reliefs.
The only place my dog barks is around the compressor motor terminals.
Oh, joy. But better than busted tubes, I guess...
Have isolated both bundles twice, let is set a week the last time, no pressure increase, nothing sniffable at the plug on the outlet section of the bundles.
Not a trace at any of the three reliefs.
The only place my dog barks is around the compressor motor terminals.
Oh, joy. But better than busted tubes, I guess...
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