is it necessary to flush line sets every time you switch 22 to 410. would like alot of feedback on this subject...
FLUSHING R22 LINE SETS WHEN SWITCHED TO 410
hvacman2213
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With line sets cut inside and outside at my comp we flush rx11 aprx. 1/2 lb in both lines with rubber cone adapter. ( Rx11 brand) then flush nitro fast. Sometimes twice pending on line lenth and dips. Never know whats in there from before. (burnouts ect.) R22 has diff. Oil than 410a and im better feeling knowing all is clean before brazing in a few grand worth of equipment. probably overkill for some and much needed for other jobs. All in all its a good standard given a 3 year labor and 10 year parts warranty. 
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Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
A small amount of min oil will not hurt oil circulation in a R10A system.
I was told by a Carrier Factory tech that if R410a comes into contact with mineral oil from 22 that it will actually gel up and turn to honey like consistancy which then can cause alot of other issues such as temp drop, restriction and other issues which will lead to lower life expectancy of equipment. This guy definitly new his stuff and i trust what he said. we were talking off the record about alot of other things so i know he wasn't B.S.ing me at all. Real nice guy. We talked about dye and other questionalbe practices and why manufacturers look for when warranty issues arise. I just appreciate the info he was giving me honestly. I also got his personal number because he was he impressed that i actually carried the correct tools such as a magnehelic gauge and static pressure tips!
I use that guage to show those customs that insist in using those horrible 3M filtrete filters. I love when people say they have alergies and they NEED these filters. I try to explain to them and give them brochures on air cleaners and attempt to explain how can a 1" filter do that in what a 8-10" wide air cleaner does. Then they don't change their 3m filter for 6 months and they burn out ECM modules and have to pay a pretty penny which they could have save by putting in a great air clean which would have saved them money and made their live much more comfortable in the long run. But what do i know!! lol
I use that guage to show those customs that insist in using those horrible 3M filtrete filters. I love when people say they have alergies and they NEED these filters. I try to explain to them and give them brochures on air cleaners and attempt to explain how can a 1" filter do that in what a 8-10" wide air cleaner does. Then they don't change their 3m filter for 6 months and they burn out ECM modules and have to pay a pretty penny which they could have save by putting in a great air clean which would have saved them money and made their live much more comfortable in the long run. But what do i know!! lol
So why aren't my hoses clogged up with honey like jelly? They've had a ton of R410A put through them, and they have min oil in them at times when I'm working on R410A systems.
Take some old min oil. Then purge some r410A into it(a de minimis amount). Try and find this honey like jelly.
Take some old min oil. Then purge some r410A into it(a de minimis amount). Try and find this honey like jelly.
No it does not produce acid.
I have tried the same thing. I was told that its not an instantantaneous reaction apparently but happens over time or the issue would be more prevelant. I also don't use the same digital guages for 410 and 22 because i rather keep my customer equipment safe rather then be sorry later. I've probably installed more 410 systems in my life in thie industry then r22. I don't beleive that this individual educating me was fabricating a lie. I just happen to ask him what happens when oils mix and that was a possiblility of what might happen. I know i don't mix syntheic and dino oil in my vehicles, obiously not for the same reason, just bad practice. I beleive his answer came from long periods of testing. Perhaps this viscous mineral old is collecting in the accumulator, i don't know my self. I was just realying from a reputable source. Carrier is the leader in the use of R410a in residential systems since the early 90's so they do have the greatest amount of real world experience. Time will tell and i rather be safe them sorry. The only time we reuse line sets are occasions where is nearly impossible to replace lines sets such as condo delveopments. Our customers are well informed and rather do teh job correctly and prevent possible issues that could have been provented not to mention possibility of leaks from unbrazed joint and undersized linesets.
Isn't R410a considered a acid?
In the refrigeration word we see mineral and POE mixed all the time and there is no ill effects.
On bigger systems you might do a conversion from mineral to POE to allow for the use of HFC refrigerants. In these cases, the conversion is done over a matter of days/weeks while the system is running. at points during the conversion you might be running as high as a 50/50 blend of POE/mineral oil and there is no ill effects.
In the case of these conversions, you keep the CFC/HCFC refrigerant in the system until the mineral oil has been reduced to the recommended percentage and than switch to the HFC refrigerant.
On bigger systems you might do a conversion from mineral to POE to allow for the use of HFC refrigerants. In these cases, the conversion is done over a matter of days/weeks while the system is running. at points during the conversion you might be running as high as a 50/50 blend of POE/mineral oil and there is no ill effects.
In the case of these conversions, you keep the CFC/HCFC refrigerant in the system until the mineral oil has been reduced to the recommended percentage and than switch to the HFC refrigerant.
The most important thing is to understand how to evacutate the system properly and i have to agree the a triple evacuation is much better than the deep vacuum method. From my experience i acheive a much better vacuum using this method. That dry nitrogen works wonder on really eliminating the system of dreaded moisture for r410a. I've spent alot trying all methods and differnet equipment to determine the best setup and methods.
1. Purging with nitro while brazing helps tremendoulsy
2. Before using the vac pump make sure to purge the lineset from high to the low and low to high. Remove valve cores!!) I also use the 6" hoses with the 1/5 ball valves for swiching from evac hoses to charginghoses
3. Use 3/8 or larger 1/2 evacuation hoses, never evacuate through a manifold unless no other option is available NO OTHER OPTION. (FLEXIBLE STEEL HOSE ARE THE BEST!) I mix and match all different brand setups for my own vacumm rig. Higher CFM pumps have no effect on producing better vacuums unless you are evacuating a very large equipment
4. Make sure you attach a high quality micron guage (blue vac seem to work very well) as furthest away from the pump as possible. I accept no greater than 500 microns holding after 15 minutes. (Please purge hoses before adding refrigerant to system) Beleive me i've seen people not do this and find it a complete waste of all the time taken to evacute!!
5. I use Nylog as thread sealant on all valve caps and connections.
6. Please alway install new filter dries on any system that has been open to atmosphere and sometimes oversize driers are a good idea for very wet systems like those people who left open pipes to outdoor elements and didn't at least cover the opening let alone brazing them shut.
I hope this quick tips for performing a vacuum helps someone.
*I still have never gotten a good answer on whether to remove a suction line filter drier is a good or bad idea. I was always brought to beleive was to remove it after a few days to a week after operation of the system along with a acid test. *
I've been doing this work from a young age and am dedicated in performing the best job and providing the best service i can to my customer. I have a college degress that was the biggest waste of money i've ever spent an am still spending money on. I love making more then my white collar friends and actually possessing skills that are useful in everyday like
SORRY FOR ANY MISTYPES OR GRAMMER/PUNCTUATION late night respones- Have a good evening fellow HVAC
1. Purging with nitro while brazing helps tremendoulsy
2. Before using the vac pump make sure to purge the lineset from high to the low and low to high. Remove valve cores!!) I also use the 6" hoses with the 1/5 ball valves for swiching from evac hoses to charginghoses
3. Use 3/8 or larger 1/2 evacuation hoses, never evacuate through a manifold unless no other option is available NO OTHER OPTION. (FLEXIBLE STEEL HOSE ARE THE BEST!) I mix and match all different brand setups for my own vacumm rig. Higher CFM pumps have no effect on producing better vacuums unless you are evacuating a very large equipment
4. Make sure you attach a high quality micron guage (blue vac seem to work very well) as furthest away from the pump as possible. I accept no greater than 500 microns holding after 15 minutes. (Please purge hoses before adding refrigerant to system) Beleive me i've seen people not do this and find it a complete waste of all the time taken to evacute!!
5. I use Nylog as thread sealant on all valve caps and connections.
6. Please alway install new filter dries on any system that has been open to atmosphere and sometimes oversize driers are a good idea for very wet systems like those people who left open pipes to outdoor elements and didn't at least cover the opening let alone brazing them shut.
I hope this quick tips for performing a vacuum helps someone.
*I still have never gotten a good answer on whether to remove a suction line filter drier is a good or bad idea. I was always brought to beleive was to remove it after a few days to a week after operation of the system along with a acid test. *
I've been doing this work from a young age and am dedicated in performing the best job and providing the best service i can to my customer. I have a college degress that was the biggest waste of money i've ever spent an am still spending money on. I love making more then my white collar friends and actually possessing skills that are useful in everyday like
SORRY FOR ANY MISTYPES OR GRAMMER/PUNCTUATION late night respones- Have a good evening fellow HVAC
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1,444 Posts
How long ago was this conversation? I can assure you, with all the Hacks doing Change-Outs, systems would be dying right and left if this was true.
Exactly.
We've discussed Copeland voiding warranties in the past if you used RX11 flush.
If the Manufacturer says blow the lines with Dry Nitrogen, that's good enough for me. We haven't pulled one DOA from doing what they said yet.
Maybe that's how they make Nylog.
R410 system not installed properly are dying left and right These systems do operate properly for the first 5 years not problem, but then they die prematurely. Compressor dont' just die, they are murdered. If a compressor fails due to mechanical/electrical faliure are do to poor installation and/or maintenace. a compressos should run at least 15 years according to copeland. I also don't use r11 flush their are other products that work better and are removed from the system during the evacuation process. Even refrigerant oil is boiled off at 250 microns if the pump is allowed to run lat losw of extended periods of time along with the purging with dehaydrated nitrogen.
R22 systems not installed right were dying left and right.
As said earlier. Refrigeration was using POE oil before Carrier tested their first R410A unit. A small amount of min oil won't cause a jell of the oils. POE has been mixed with min to get better oil return on some low temp refrigeration systems.
R410A doesn't mix with min oil, so its not going to jell it either. Your source may have been repeating something he had heard when R410A first came out.
Carrier was one of the manufacturers that originally said to only use nitrogen to flush out lines, no chemicals. They may have changed their stance on it in the last few years(IDK).
I can remember when per Trane changing out line sets were a must when going from R-22 to R-410a. Then a year pasted and they said no know you can reuse then just flush system with R-11, nitrogen, and pull a good vacum down 500 microns and you were good to go.
So who really knows the proper way to convert a R-22 line set to R-410a? All i do know is we do what Trane says and follow there rules because if there is a problem then there want be any finger pointing!!!
I would think Carrier would be the best source on do and don'ts with R-410a as they have been leading the pack for 20 plus years with there R-410 a system. Just my 2 cents!
So who really knows the proper way to convert a R-22 line set to R-410a? All i do know is we do what Trane says and follow there rules because if there is a problem then there want be any finger pointing!!!
I would think Carrier would be the best source on do and don'ts with R-410a as they have been leading the pack for 20 plus years with there R-410 a system. Just my 2 cents!
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