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There are ICF and SIPS constructed homes in the DFW part of Texas that maintain 75Âş indoor temps just fine in our 100Âş+ weather that have >1000 sq ft per ton of cooling.

I still really highly recommend you have the home blower door tested to verify that it is as tight as expected. Excess infiltration is a huge energy killer.
With ongoing construction and work crews in an out a lot, I'm with others in thinking it is to soon to get very concerned about your energy usage.
 


The attic has cellulose blown in to at least 12" thick, much more in most places.


I have 14 48"x48" PeachTree vinyl slider windows in the house.

The house is on a slab and the ductwork runs through the attic. The ductwork, including the returns, are well insulated.

Insulation: 2x6 outside walls with blown in foam (the stuff that expands). All windows are double pane.
You need to call the installing company to task on this. . . . . . . . .
It sounds like you foamed the outside walls and have 12" blown in the attic?
When we foam a house it is foamed in the attic also. Capacity "may" be a problem if your sq. ft. are correct.

I may be wrong but this system sounds like it has a outside stat that is keeping the electric heat off and dropping the inside temp.
Your installer should check his ballance point according to your information.
Once again, on a new home, you NEED to get them to address your concerns.
 
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unit is too small

an 3100 sq ft home on an 4 ton HP?
I would shoot the company who said this was big enough, just wait till summer it wont cool very well either
did you use any outdoor air intake?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
an overly simplistic rule is 500 sq ft to an ton, but that gets altered by the manula J heat load calculation. I have an 3 ton on my 1500 ft one story home and it does great, but 3100 on 4 ton wow thats way over loaded.
 
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an 3100 sq ft home on an 4 ton HP?
I would shoot the company who said this was big enough, just wait till summer it wont cool very well either
did you use any outdoor air intake?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
an overly simplistic rule is 500 sq ft to an ton, but that gets altered by the manula J heat load calculation. I have an 3 ton on my 1500 ft one story home and it does great, but 3100 on 4 ton wow thats way over loaded.
I can point you to 3000+ sq ft SIPS built homes in north Texas that do just fine at keeping it 75Âş in the house with a 3 ton system when it is 100Âş outside.

The OP's home is not SIPS, but it is far better insulated than the average stick built house with normal insulation. Assuming the home is as tight as it should be, I really seriously doubt his problem has anything at all to do with the size of the system.
3100 sq ft with a 4 ton system is only 775 sq ft/ton. You can do that with a traditional stick built home without foam insulation if the house is tight and doesn't have excessive windows.
500 sq ft/ton is a relic of loose, poorly insulated, house construction and cheep energy.
 
I can point you to 3000+ sq ft SIPS built homes in north Texas that do just fine at keeping it 75Âş in the house with a 3 ton system when it is 100Âş outside.

The OP's home is not SIPS, but it is far better insulated than the average stick built house with normal insulation. Assuming the home is as tight as it should be, I really seriously doubt his problem has anything at all to do with the size of the system.
3100 sq ft with a 4 ton system is only 775 sq ft/ton. You can do that with a traditional stick built home without foam insulation if the house is tight and doesn't have excessive windows.
500 sq ft/ton is a relic of loose, poorly insulated, house construction and cheep energy.
I agree 100%.. I questioned the 12" of blown in the attic with foam in the walls... Now the question of running days and not hitting setpoint my be conjecture on his part if he does not live full time there...
If he has a problem he needs to contact the installer.
 
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an 3100 sq ft home on an 4 ton HP?
I would shoot the company who said this was big enough, just wait till summer it wont cool very well either
did you use any outdoor air intake?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
an overly simplistic rule is 500 sq ft to an ton, but that gets altered by the manula J heat load calculation. I have an 3 ton on my 1500 ft one story home and it does great, but 3100 on 4 ton wow thats way over loaded.
We have an 11000 sq. ft home with zero shading, dark roof and an attached sun room that is almost all glass and it only has 11 tons. All the equipment is in the attic. Been running for 4 years and the homeowner says it is the most comfortable home he has ever owned. 500 sq. ft/ton is what I use for commercial if I want to be lazy and not do a load calc. 1500 sq. ft I would put a 2 ton.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
It was my choice to use foam in the walls and cellulose in the ceiling. I elected to foam any surface touching the outside (walls and foyer ceiling that goes to the roof). I also did interior sound walls in foam. The ceiling would have been an additional $4,700 vs. $1,500 for 125 bags of cellulose, with roughly the same insulating quality. I also did not want to negate my perferated soffit, and didn't like the idea of not giving the shingles any breathing room. Also, Tamko will give you a hard time if they are called upon to honor the warranty on shingles that have no airspace under them.
 
With the second floor registers totally closed (as they are now), both floors match the thermostat setting. I'd imagine in the summer I'll have to close all the first floor registers and open the second floor registers.

Did they happen to install dampers for you in the attic? It would be much better if you would restrict the air flow in the attic rather then letting the airflow travel all the way to the register.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Did they happen to install dampers for you in the attic? It would be much better if you would restrict the air flow in the attic rather then letting the airflow travel all the way to the register.
They didn't install dampers. Had them in Virginia and they were great. This house is really a single story with an 8/12 roof, holding a family room in the attic with a couple of dormers sticking out of both sides. Lots of engineered beams that I couldn't go through so the ductwork leaves the air handler (in the room off the side of the family room in the attic) and goes up to the 2nd floor attic, and feeds both the 2nd and 1st floor (by dropping down through chases). The design of the house made it impossible to do it any different.
 
an 3100 sq ft home on an 4 ton HP?
I would shoot the company who said this was big enough, just wait till summer it wont cool very well either
did you use any outdoor air intake?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
an overly simplistic rule is 500 sq ft to an ton, but that gets altered by the manula J heat load calculation. I have an 3 ton on my 1500 ft one story home and it does great, but 3100 on 4 ton wow thats way over loaded.
We have a ~4000 square foot home (3100 main levels plus about 1000 heated basement) that in only has a 4 ton GSHP. It was below 0F outside the past few days and the GSHP was not running continuously. Walls are 2x6 and well insulated etc. so it doesn't sound to me that the HP is too small. According to the load calculation program used, heat loss is around 50kBTU at -13F. Of course, the house is very airtight - this is as important as the insulation (and hence we have an HRV too).

Paul
 
Would it not have been better in this case to oversize a little ( go up to the 5 ton model ) because it is a 2 stage heat pump model.
This way the heat pump would run in the lower stage more and save electricity. I am sure the Trane XL 16i is a two stage model.
 
Would it not have been better in this case to oversize a little ( go up to the 5 ton model ) because it is a 2 stage heat pump model.
This way the heat pump would run in the lower stage more and save electricity. I am sure the Trane XL 16i is a two stage model.
Oversizing a 2 stage system is almost as bad for the cooling mode as oversizing a single stage system.
 
How high are your ceilings? Low velocity airflow (not surprising with 21 registers) and high ceilings could mean that the warm air is staying near the ceiling. What kind of registers? Some of the stamped metal ones are designed to make the air hug the ceiling and then drift down, which is fine for distributing cool air but will keep the warm air up high. Registers with individually adjustable fins allow you to shoot the air down to the floor.
 
>>Oversizing a 2 stage system is almost as bad for the cooling mode as oversizing a single stage system

Could you explain that a bit more, in elementary terms for those of us who haven't had the training you have. I would have thought a 4.0 ton 1st stage would be 2-2.5 tons capacity, and a 5.0 ton 1st stage would be 2.5-3 tons capacity. Would it not be productive to have 2-stage even if somewhat oversized?

I would not intentionally oversize this way, but want to understand all the pros and cons. Since Trane does not make half-ton sizing for 2-stage (mostly), it appeared Trane was telling us sizing was more flexible.

Thank you -- Pstu
 
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Discussion starter · #35 · (Edited)
How high are your ceilings? What kind of registers?
8 foot ceilings, and stamped metal registers with fins on the side shooting the air outward to each side, and the center fins shooting the air against the wall. Only adjustment is flow for the entire thing.

On another note, I got tired of hearing it run continuously (still set at 70 degrees) so I dropped it to 68. Outside temperature was 37. I checked back and 30 minutes later, the system was still off, and the inside temperature was still 70. About 15 minutes later, with the room temperature still at 70, and the set point at 68, the heater kicked on and ran continuously until, 30 minutes later... Inside temperature still 70 degrees, I shut off the system for 15 minutes, inside temperature still 70 degrees, restarted it, adjusted the setpoint for 70, and 10 minutes later the system kicked on. One hour later it is still running continuously, maintaining 70 with a setpoint of 70.
 
>>Oversizing a 2 stage system is almost as bad for the cooling mode as oversizing a single stage system

Could you explain that a bit more, in elementary terms for those of us who haven't had the training you have. I would have thought a 4.0 ton 1st stage would be 2-2.5 tons capacity, and a 5.0 ton 1st stage would be 2.5-3 tons capacity. Would it not be productive to have 2-stage even if somewhat oversized?

I would not intentionally oversize this way, but want to understand all the pros and cons. Since Trane does not make half-ton sizing for 2-stage (mostly), it appeared Trane was telling us sizing was more flexible.

Thank you -- Pstu
If you need a 3.5 ton it isn't that big of a deal to upsize to a 4 ton 2 stage, but I would match it with a smaller indoor coil than I would if I had a true 4 ton load so it would have more latent capacity.

The problem with oversizing 2 stage equipment is that you still have the same size indoor coil running 1st stage as you do 2nd stage, effectivly making the indoor coil oversized in 1st stage. The ratio between sensible and latent capacity isn't as good in 1st stage as in 2nd stage. If the system is oversized significantly, it will tend to satisfy the cooling demand with just 1st stage cooling most of the time, not run as long at a time doing it, and won't cycle 2nd stage very often, if at all.

Less run time in 1st stage with its lower latent capacity + less cycling of 2nd stage = more moisture left in the air.
 
They didn't install dampers. Had them in Virginia and they were great. This house is really a single story with an 8/12 roof, holding a family room in the attic with a couple of dormers sticking out of both sides. Lots of engineered beams that I couldn't go through so the ductwork leaves the air handler (in the room off the side of the family room in the attic) and goes up to the 2nd floor attic, and feeds both the 2nd and 1st floor (by dropping down through chases). The design of the house made it impossible to do it any different.
No dampers to balance air flow....hmmm If you think there is a temperature differential between the upstairs and down now, wait until this summer when it gets into the 90s. Bet the t-stat is downstairs too. The fact that the system never seems to shut off is not a good sign either. I would seriously think about having a proper load calc done by a competent party and address the design issues before this gets any worse. You are really setting yourself up for long term headaches and some high electric bills if you don't. I would hate for you to invest so much into your home and be stuck with a nightmare for heating and cooling. I would really think about trying to get some kind of zone control for the upstairs also. It will not work to try to control an upstairs room with a thermostat that is downstairs. Heat rises and there is nothing up there to tell the system what that area needs.
 
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We have an 11000 sq. ft home with zero shading, dark roof and an attached sun room that is almost all glass and it only has 11 tons. All the equipment is in the attic. Been running for 4 years and the homeowner says it is the most comfortable home he has ever owned. 500 sq. ft/ton is what I use for commercial if I want to be lazy and not do a load calc. 1500 sq. ft I would put a 2 ton.
but how much heat? i have low fire two speed unit, 33k &54k btu
i could say that as well if i was referring to NJ, however i was not
i am reffering to west TN with larger cooling load and more cooling days per season than nj, and the bigger question was about heating an 3100 sq ft home with an 4 ton HP
i started up an twe o36 just this week that would not run hi speed due to hi compressor over amp / OL in windings open, the compressor was hot, we pulled sound blanket and iced it to cool her off, once we got it running on an 40 degree day the head pressure was sky hi, pushing 450 psig, we quickly pulled 3 lbs of gas out, head dropped and she went to working, this was with line set less than 30 ft and no charged added, he possible ly has same thing an over charged from factory.
also he says he is in NE arkansas, that puts him in an 30/70 split on load calculation due to humidity, ever location has variables that effects load calculations.
 
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If you need a 3.5 ton it isn't that big of a deal to upsize to a 4 ton 2 stage, but I would match it with a smaller indoor coil than I would if I had a true 4 ton load so it would have more latent capacity.

The problem with oversizing 2 stage equipment is that you still have the same size indoor coil running 1st stage as you do 2nd stage, effectivly making the indoor coil oversized in 1st stage. The ratio between sensible and latent capacity isn't as good in 1st stage as in 2nd stage. If the system is oversized significantly, it will tend to satisfy the cooling demand with just 1st stage cooling most of the time, not run as long at a time doing it, and won't cycle 2nd stage very often, if at all.

Less run time in 1st stage with its lower latent capacity + less cycling of 2nd stage = more moisture left in the air.

So you are saying in the heat mode this is okay but it the air conditioning it will hurt you. I had thought it would just run a long time in the cooling mode in the 1st stage and that would remove a lot of the humidity.
If undersized , it would kick into the 2nd stage or high stage quicker.
I guess I just do not understand 2 stage real well yet.

So if you live in a climate that has more demand and cost for heat, oversizing a 2 stage is better than oversizing in climate that calls for more air conditioning?
 
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