Complete Energy Star Program or just do heat/air?

cindyandwade · Jun 5, 2012

I live in NJ. There is a program called njcleanenergy that gives rebates based on the percentage of energy saving achieved by upgrading the hvac and doing other items. Reducing usage by 20% gets a $4k rebate and by 25% gets a 5k rebate. Also, there is 10 year financing at 0% for up to $10k. Our home would get energy star certification. It sounds like a good deal.

I have a 16 year old, 2 story, 2800 sq ft house with a 90% heater and standard (80%?) a/c unit. We want to replace the hvac because many neighbors have been having failures, so we thought to do it while the program above exists.

We had the home energy audit and in order to achieve 20% we would have to go with a hybrid heat/ac system and a power vent hot water heater, along with attic sealing and 6" of insulation. This gets us the 4k rebate. If we do the non-hybrid system with a tankless hot water system and attic work, we get the 5k rebate, and somehow the whole job turns out to be 1k less. We think the tankless option is the best move since it is cheaper.

We had also considered just doing the hvac and not participating in the program. That would cost us $3k less than the whole energy star package, and no special financing. Our water heater is 8.5 years old.

My main question is whether it is worth it to spend the extra 3k on the tankless water heater and the attic sealing and insulation?

The unit quoted is Carrier 59TP5A100E21 and 24ABC648.

Any thoughts on the warranty of 10 years complete vs 5 yr complete w/10 yr mfg part warranty? Are hvac likely to have issues in year 5-10 or do most show up early, and then at the end of life span (sort of like cars). I also read that many of these warranties require you to get them serviced every year. I'm thinking the warranty cost for those additional 5 years, plus the mandatory service fees (rather than getting a friend etc to do it) might pay for any out of warranty repairs.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

motoguy128 · Jun 5, 2012

Personally I like Combi hot water systems, but only if it's a Combi boiler. Can you give us more info on the water heater, brand, model, etc? What air handler are they using? Ranni is pushing their combi systems pretty hard. Keep in ming tankless units are just as complicated as modulating furnaces. Heat pumps don't last quite as long as AC system since they see more use. If I remember right ,NJ has fairly high electric rates and moderate NG rates, so I don't see much benefit other than to the utility to get more winter loads.

0% financing isn't really a bad thing.

My only concern is that many local contractors due to higher demand and all the utility rebates may have higher than normal pricign throgu hthis program, especially if they have ot fil out all sorts of paperwork and do extra certifications.

Can you choose ot use any contractor, or only certain "qualified" contractors. There's been discussions abotu this. That only larger companies are getting qualified, and they may not rpovide hte best quality installation and you'll never know if the pricing is fair sicne you are limted to certain contractors. Odds are good that you will pay more and negate much of the savings.

The diffrence between a good quality and poor quality installation could mean equipment that lasts 12-15 years vs. 6-8 years... or less. Thats a prety big difference.

Tankless heater REQUIRE annual maintance to clean the heat exchanger. Possbily even more often on a combi unit, especailly if you have harder water.

wahoo · Jun 5, 2012

Does your electric company give you a reduced rate if you have a heat pump? That would make it more interesting if they did.

energy_rater_La · Jun 5, 2012

it would depend on what type and how much attic to living space leakage you have.
did you get detail of where leakage sites are located?
or just a number of measurement of leakage..some like the equiv leakage area
3'x3' hole for example.

knowing where the leakage is, and how to seal it is half the job.
the sealing of these leakage sites and re-testing to assure
that the sites were properly addressed is the other half.

was ductwork tested for duct leakage? returns tested for leakage?

air sealing is always a good investment. always. low cost and good
roi and immediate benefit. once air sealing is completed and re-tested
then add more insulation. so that is a solid yes on air sealing & insulation

to seal ducts where all of the air is entering the house is a no brainer.
energy star allows 5% ductleakage. its hard to get this low in an
existing home without specific testing & verification.

you now have a gas furnace..is this what you would go back with?
tankless water heater..is this also gas?
is this equipment located in the attic?

did the company who did the testing bid the work?

not sure how utility provider audits work.

zero intrest for 10 years is also a good deal.

I'm sure tipsrfine will be along, this is his neck of the woods
if I remember correctly. there are also some other bpi folks here
that might reply.
best of luck.

cindyandwade · Jun 14, 2012

energy_rater_La said:
it would depend on what type and how much attic to living space leakage you have.
did you get detail of where leakage sites are located?
or just a number of measurement of leakage..some like the equiv leakage area
3'x3' hole for example.

knowing where the leakage is, and how to seal it is half the job.
the sealing of these leakage sites and re-testing to assure
that the sites were properly addressed is the other half.

THEY SHOWED ME THAT THERE IS LEAKAGE WHERE THE SECOND FLOOR WALLS MEET THE ATTIC AND AROUND ALL THE AREAS WHERE THERE ARE GAPS ENTERING THE ATTIC, SUCH AS ELECTRICAL BOXES FROM CEILING FANS AND STUFF. I COULD SEE THE DIRTY INSUALTION IN THOSE AREAS. THEY DIDN'T GIVE A MEASUREMENT. ATTIC ABOUT 1200 SQ FEET.

was ductwork tested for duct leakage? returns tested for leakage?

I DON'T THINK IT WAS TESTED.

air sealing is always a good investment. always. low cost and good
roi and immediate benefit. once air sealing is completed and re-tested
then add more insulation. so that is a solid yes on air sealing & insulation

to seal ducts where all of the air is entering the house is a no brainer.
energy star allows 5% ductleakage. its hard to get this low in an
existing home without specific testing & verification.

you now have a gas furnace..is this what you would go back with?
tankless water heater..is this also gas?
is this equipment located in the attic?

THEY ARE BOTH GAS AND I WILL KEEP GAS. THE EQUIP IS IN THE UNFINISHED BASEMENT

did the company who did the testing bid the work?

THE COMPANY WHO TESTED IS GIVING ME THE PRICES. I HAVE A PRICE FROM ONE WHO TESTED, GETTING ANOTHER TONIGHT FROM ONE WHO TESTED AND HAVE A PRICE FROM ONE WHO BASICALLY USED THE EQUIP FROM THE FIRST ESTIMATE, AND WILL DO THE AUDIT IF I THINK I'LL GO WITH THEM. THEY ARE $ CHEAPER THAN THE PRICE I HAVE ALREADY.

not sure how utility provider audits work.

THE UTILITY DOESN'T DO THE AUDIT, THEY HAVE APPROVED CONTRACTORS WHO MUST BE BPI CERTIFIED. THEY STATE DOES INSPECT ABOUT 10% OF THE JOBS.

zero intrest for 10 years is also a good deal.

YES IT IS! MY HOME EQUITY IS ABOUT 3.50 RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT IS VARIABLE...

I'm sure tipsrfine will be along, this is his neck of the woods
if I remember correctly. there are also some other bpi folks here
that might reply.
best of luck.

RIGHT NOW LEANING TOWARD 2 STAGE 96.7 EFF HEAT AND SINGLE STAGE 16 SEER EITHER CARRIER COMFORT OR PERFORMANCE. I DON'T REALLY SEE THAT I NEED THE INFINITY A/C FOR THE EXTRA $. IT'S STILL ABOUT $ MORE. I WISH I KNEW WHAT REASONABLE COSTS WERE FOR 6" BLOWN IN INSULATION FOR MY ATTIC, AND THE AIR SEALING. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THEY FLUFF UP THE ESTIMATES. THE AIR SEALING IS THE MAIN REQUIREMENT OF THE CLEAN ENERGY. THE AIR SEALING PLUS OTHER MEASURES (SUCH AS HEAT/AC/WATER/INSUL) TO GET YOU TO 20-25% ENERGY USE REDUCTION. ALREADY HAVING 90% FURNACE MAKES IT HARDER FOR ME TO GET THE REDUCTION, SO I NEED THE TANKLESS OR HYBRID.

I'LL POST BACK WITH MORE INFO. SORRY FOR THE CAPS, IT WAS HOW I COULD RESPOND WITHIN YOUR POST SINCE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DO IT!

energy_rater_La · Jun 14, 2012

and I thought you were yelling @ me. (just kidding)

post back with the bids.

the air sealing is important. duct sealing is too, but I don't know
much about basements. any ducts in the attic should be sealed.
that I do know!

there are tankless water heaters like Rainni, Bosch, Rheem/Ruud
is the one they propose the only one that qualifies?
look at the energy factors. these units should have ef's of .80 & higher
as compared to .65 for top of the line standard gas tanks.

best of luck.

cindyandwade · Jun 14, 2012

I will post back. Apparently basement ducts don't need sealing but attic would.

2 companies proposed the Navien, and my neighbor who is a plumber put one in his home. He loves it. We have NG

This is from the Navien website..

NR-240A / NR-240
Input 20,000~199,000 BTU/h
EF (Natural Gas) 0.95
EF (Propane Gas) 0.97
Flow Rate At 35˚F Rise : 11 GPM
At 45˚F Rise : 8.6 GPM
At 77˚F Rise : 5.1 GPM

cindyandwade · Jun 27, 2012

small update

Am I allowed to post prices? For just this part of the quote it is 5 digits...about 20% above when you first get to 5 digits.... It seems like they are charging a LOT for this, considering my old ductwork and pvc chimney for the furnace will be used. The prices for the tankless, air sealing and insulation are "ok". They will "seal all areas of air communication between exterior and living areas as specified by BPI air sealing guidelines.""add R-19 blown in (8") (944 sq feet).

I think it is this main hvac portion that is inflated because of the rebate program. I like this system with the tankless water heater. The hybrid was also suggested, but with a power vent water. That would be a couple hundred less, but if I'm paying for either hybrid or tankless I like having a little perk of unlimited hot water. AND it's 96% efficient and a future selling point. I won't live here long enough to worry about the savings from heat pump or for it to pay back. This way I get a new "toy" and still get efficiency. What do you think of this system and shouldn't it be be closer to barely 5 digits, even in NJ????

• Remove and dispose of existing furnace, coil, line set, and plenum located in basement.
• Clean duct system.
• Install new 2-stage, 80,000 BTU Carrier 96% gas furnace. (Model 59TP5A080E2120)
• Install new 4-ton Carrier 16, 1-speed A/C condenser on legs. (Puron) (Model (24ABC648C)
• Install new matching Carrier evaporator coil. (CNPVP4821A)
• Install new properly sized disconnect/ whip.
• Install new media cabinet and filter. (MERV 10)
• Install new Carrier Edge programmable thermostat control.
• Install new plenum and duct adaptation to existing supply and return duct.
• Install new copper line set to connect units between indoor and outdoor equipment.
• Install new condensation removal system.
• Connect to existing intake and exhaust piping to exterior.
• Includes Carrier Lifetime warranty on heat exchanger and compressor.
• Includes Carrier 10-year parts warranty and 10-year labor warranty.
• Includes 1-year maintenance agreement. (Fall 2012 and Spring 2013)
• All UCC required permit fees included.

motoguy128 · Jun 27, 2012

You migth want ot ask abotu going ot a Infinity Furnace, controller and a 2 stage Infinity 17 AC unit. You can still have nearly the same humidity control with the edge, but the Inifinity is even better. I just had one installed, and with my local contractor at least, the increase in price after Carrier's rebates was very small over the Performance Series equipment you are looking it. It's still great equiipment. Actually that particular condenser is the quietest unit Carrier makes, only matched by the Infinity 21 and the Greenspeed on low speed is probably quieter.

With the tankless, go for the "A" model with the 1/2 gallon buffer tank. As you have money, you can add recirculation loops and get instant hot water. Just a matter of typing in 1/2" pex as clsoe as possible to the fixture. I absolutely love mine. Hot water in about 1 second to the kitchen sink and 2-3 seconds to the others that I had access to. Just make sure you insulate all the water pipes. I have mine set ot 112F> Hot enough to dissolve grease off of hand washed dishes, but won't burn you and maximumized flwo throuh the unit (helps reduce deposits on the HE)

Pricing varies a lot by region. Thsi si a busiest time of the year, so don't expect any discounts. I will say I have a plumber that is very very reasonable and I got a pretty good deal on my Infinity System... but the cost of livign and standard rate of the contractors in my area is way, way lower than NJ. I'll put it this way, a single family home that costs $100k where you are, is probably about $50k where I am... and it's still 20-30% larger. But there's also very little new construction.

motoguy128 · Jun 27, 2012

Oh...BTW - with 200k BTU's and the current 60+F water temps, I found I can't even get enough flow in my house to max it out. I ended up setting it to 140F to push it as hard as I could to make sure the venting and gas flow was adequate. I think it might have maxed it out and it's control valve will pinch back overall flow to maintain the setpoint.

cindyandwade · Jun 27, 2012

The heat pump is a nice idea, but somehow this guy is managing to charge $ more for this system than the one I first posted. Of course after i get back an extra 1000 from the state and 650 from carrier it comes close...but i can't believe it needs to be that much more to start with. As it works out I can afford EITHER the hybrid /infinity OR the tankless. They come out very close in price. I don't think I'll make it by June 30 for the Carrier rebate. If the price had been closer before the rebates then it would have been my choice. Of course this was the "recommended" option.

This is the hybrid/heat pump that cost too much more....

• Remove and dispose of existing furnace, coil, line set, and plenum located in basement
• Clean duct system.
• Install new 2-stage, 80,000 BTU Carrier 96% gas furnace. (Model 59TP5A080E2120)
• Install new 4-ton Carrier Infinity 16, 2-stage heat pump condenser on legs. (Puron) (Model (25HNB636B)
• Install new matching Carrier evaporator coil. (CNPVP4821A)

motoguy128 · Jun 27, 2012

I didn't mean dual fuel, just the Infinity AC, Infinity Controller/thermostat & Infinity 2 stage furnace. The SEER rating will only be slightly higher, but in terms of comfort, the 2 stage AC and superior Humidity control of the Infinity may be worth it... especially if you like toys. I think the infinity controller is a way cooler toy than the Navien. Lost more button, lights, data and settings. Now if the Navien gave you real time % the burner was running at, the incomming water flow rate and temperature... now that would be super cool!

beenthere · Jun 27, 2012

Prices are not allowed.

cindyandwade · Jun 27, 2012

Don't think we priced straight up Infinity without it being a heat pump. Is it really worth it if we might only be here 5 years? Please be patient with me...but to me heat is heat and air is air...I get that it might be more evenly heated or cooled, but what REALLY is the upside to it?

By the way, I am rethinking the Navien tankless. Despite my neighbor plumber getting one I have read they are noisy. The upside is he can help me out in a pinch if I have a sudden problem..

How much more efficient is the Infinity non heat pump than the non heat pump I was quoted? I think I needed the higher efficiency of heat pump to reach my 25% energy savings goal, that is where the tankless came in. I'm fairly sure I need either the tankless or heat pump to achieve 25% savings goal, if I don't hit 25% my rebate is 1000 less.

energy_rater_La · Jun 27, 2012

the upside is that in the winter you won't be using electric strip
to heat all the time. when temps get to 30 degrees and stay there
is when the hp switches to electric strip.

if you've ever used an electric heater..the ones with the coils
that turn orange as they heat up..that is the same type
as elec strip heating. only larger.
electric strip is the most expensive way to heat.

savings with hp's are for winter. in cooling mode they
are the same as ac with electric strip.

I think in 5 years you'd save the cost to upgrade to hp
easily.

decisions decisions..good that you are asking questions.
to fully understand what and why your are purchasing
is a good thing imo.

best of luck.

cindyandwade · Jun 27, 2012

Our backup would be Ngas. We can get some real cold snaps here in the low teens, though last winter we barely touched the teens. That is why it would be so expensive, we'd have essentially 2 systems. I don't really see getting hp when our gas is 90% now and new would be 96%. We are in NJ, near Philadelphia.

My friend, who is hvac trained, but does commercial says we should just wait until it breaks. Says he can help us fix it (but will he always be there?). He says the payback is too long to be worth it right now while it still functions fine. (several neighbors have has a/c problems and replacements recently-same age homes). The 0 percent, 10 year financing is attractive, but maybe he has a point.... I'm sure I could get extra insulated (go from R24 to R38 or so) and sealed for less than they are charging, so as of an hour ago I am considering getting prices for that and seeing what's what. My main holdup is that I cant' figure out how much of my 5k rebate is going in there pocket instead of mine due to mark ups. If I did each bit piecemeal I wonder if it would be a similar price (using home equity line or savings instead of finance...)

Thinking one more quote from a smaller dealer who maybe has less markup and one for insulation only...then decide. Please understand, I know there is markup, but I am getting numbers way higher than neighbors NOT doing this. One neighbor got a lennox XC17 and I was surprised to see that, based on the price he said he paid. DOn't know yet what heat he got, but I peeked outside! I think a good heat because he got rebates...I hope it's not too rude, but I plan to as for details on price and models!

motoguy128 · Jun 28, 2012

If your only staying 5 years, probably not worth it. But make sure the Edge thermostat is set-up for dehumidify on demand. This slows the blower to dehumidify better.

energy_rater_La · Jun 28, 2012

I must have missed the part about the 90% gas furnace.
by all means..keep it. unless it has failed there is no
reason to upgrade for such small efficiency.

good luck with the cheaper air sealing. if I had to charge
for what I've done in my house today..just inside the house..it
would be several hundred dollars.
the materials are cheap,
its the difficulty to get to the areas to be sealed.

just taking things out of the cabinets with the false boxing
to seal them on the inside took several hours.
can't fit a caulk gun in a cabinet very easily. so I had
to use a different method.
that's not counting the time I took to weed through
and re-organize.
you'll save money if you have the areas to be sealed cleared
out so that whoever will have easy access.
I charge extra to hump stuff around on my jobs.

best of luck.

cindyandwade · Sep 6, 2012

motoguy128 said:
You might want to ask about going ot a Infinity Furnace, controller and a 2 stage Infinity 17 AC unit. You can still have nearly the same humidity control with the edge, but the Inifinity is even better. I just had one installed, and with my local contractor at least, the increase in price after Carrier's rebates was very small over the Performance Series equipment you are looking it. It's still great equiipment. Actually that particular condenser is the quietest unit Carrier makes, only matched by the Infinity 21 and the Greenspeed on low speed is probably quieter.

With the tankless, go for the "A" model with the 1/2 gallon buffer tank. As you have money, you can add recirculation loops and get instant hot water. Just a matter of typing in 1/2" pex as clsoe as possible to the fixture. I absolutely love mine. Hot water in about 1 second to the kitchen sink and 2-3 seconds to the others that I had access to. Just make sure you insulate all the water pipes. I have mine set ot 112F> Hot enough to dissolve grease off of hand washed dishes, but won't burn you and maximumized flwo throuh the unit (helps reduce deposits on the HE)

.

I finally signed up for performance level equip, 2stage heat and a/c and the Navien. I asked about the Infinity now that the rebates are out but he claims it will still cost me another thousand to get it, even with the rebate. I doubt it should, but hey I signed the contract because i wanted to get the ball rolling. Decided the heat pump might be more trouble than it's worth with valves to break and defrost and so forth. With low gas rates I decided the Navien gives me more benefit based on my usage pattern for hot water.

As for the Navien. I wish I could ask you how much extra a plumber might charge for the recirc line. I am getting the "A" model and an expansion tank (that was due to a communication error when I told him I wanted the one with the little tank.) Is the recir line something a plumber friend could easily add after install is complete? I'm sure it would be cheaper. Hopefully it wouldn't void any warranty. I have a 2 floor house with 2 baths and laundry on second floor. Navien will be in basement. Does it need to connect at the faucet or just in the basement where it tees off to the furthest fixtures?

motoguy128 · Sep 7, 2012

The recircualton line is pretty simple. 1/2" is plenty large enough. I think the pump is only pushing 2-3gpm. Just make sure to insulate all the hot water lines on the loop (they now essentially become a hot water storage tank). You can jsut run PEX (that's what I've been using in my home) which makes it easy to squeeze into tight spaces.

One catch... do not use recirculation through pipes that are iron or galvanized (most common piping materials before 1950) They will errode and you wil lget a lot of rust anddebris that can plug up yoru heat exchanger or at manimum acceperate minerl deposits. If you must, plan on replacing them in a few years, and install an extra strainer and you might need to increase the recirculation pipe to 5/8 or 3/4".

Ideally, to get the most out of recirculation, you just need to add a T as close as possible to the fixtures that you want instant hot water from. In pratice, if you can get within about 5-10' you're within 2-3 seconds wait tiem for hot water. The A model has the chekc valve and circulation pump built in. You just have to follow the instaructions and turn a valve internally, set a dip switch and configure it in the set-up menu's. The controlelr isn't the most intuitive, but the manual is pretty good.

Then you want to set the water temp as cool as possible sicne you don't need it extra hot because of losses in the lines or because of storage capacity or preventing microbe growth. I set mine to 108F and rely on the heating elements in my dishwasher to bring it up to 130F for cleaning dishes. I like it also because it's a nice handwashing temeprature without needing to blend in cold water, and our toddler can't burn her hands at 108F. Some may like it even hotter for lundry or like super hot baths, so you might go up to 112-115F. Honestly, in our toilet closet downstairs, I should have bought a single hole sink and just installed a single faucet. We rarely use the cold water in that sink.

For costs, I don't know what your plumbers charge there hourly. I still have one more 30' run ot install some day when we're ready to open up the kitchen ceiling for access.

But I think it was a few hundred in materials (will vary) and I think my plumber put in about 1-1/2 days total on hte recirc lines. I had a full basement and good access to all of them.

Plumbers can usually vary from $50-80/hour. So you could spend anywhere from $400-1000 to install the recriculation loop alone. It just depends. Personally, I'm in a small town, my plumer has reasonable rates, just charges me time and materials, I trust him, he very fast, efficient, does good clean work and it's usualyl less than I expected.

Complete Energy Star Program or just do heat/air?

cindyandwade

motoguy128

wahoo

energy_rater_La

cindyandwade

energy_rater_La

cindyandwade

cindyandwade

motoguy128

motoguy128

cindyandwade

motoguy128

beenthere

cindyandwade

energy_rater_La

cindyandwade

motoguy128

energy_rater_La

cindyandwade

motoguy128

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