D-tek vs H-10.

itsiceman · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Yep.

I saw that video and I don't doubt it.

Problem is, that is a "static" test. No air currents, no other variables affecting the results.

Put an hvac system, a case or cooler air distribution system, a few exhaust fans, make-up fans and all of that stuff goes out the window.

I'm still waiting for the Inficon guys to weigh in on this.

Wonder if thy have pro access???

I believe that is what made the difference here. I little air movement and its not sensitive enough.
The leak ref is the same MechAcc used in his other set of videos in the shop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krNJw8Rb0Nc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pyFWhq77Js&feature=channel

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

hvacrmedic said:
Disable the auto-zero function by pressing the Hi/Low button for 5 seconds. Let the detector warm up in a fresh air environment for 5 to 10 minutes before checking large areas suspected of containing refrigerant vapor.

Auto-zero will help to quickly isolate the leak after you've determined its general location, however that feature will by its very nature actually prevent detection of relatively uniform concentrations in the ambient air. So turn that feature off, and try it again.

FWIW, the D-tek Select is the best detector I've ever used.

Tried it and it still failed.

Last store I was working on, I took both detectors out the front door, zeroed them in manual mode outside and walked in.

The H-10 alerted as soon I stepped through the doors into the store and continued to require minor adjustements as I closed in on a VERY small leak.

The D-tek remained blissfully and ignorantly silent.

itsiceman · Mar 3, 2012

IMO I think air quality has more affect on I/R detectors than we are being lead to believe.
It would explain the working when it wants to.
Just a guess but I think I/R is best suited in warm ..... warm + dry climates from my understanding of the operation of a I/R detector.

JP check out page 11

http://www.heliosat3.de/e-learning/remote-sensing/Lec7.pdf

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

Very interesting stuff there.

hvacrmedic · Mar 3, 2012

itsiceman said:
IMO I think air quality has more affect on I/R detectors than we are being lead to believe.
It would explain the working when it wants to.
Just a guess but I think I/R is best suited in warm ..... warm + dry climates from my understanding of the operation of a I/R detector.

JP check out page 11

http://www.heliosat3.de/e-learning/remote-sensing/Lec7.pdf

Could be something to that, but I haven't had issues like that with my current D-tek. I did get intermittent operation with my first one though. It finally quit sensing altogether, so I took it back. 2 year over the counter replacement warranty.

AirTechMech · Mar 3, 2012

itsiceman said:
IMO I think air quality has more affect on I/R detectors than we are being lead to believe.
It would explain the working when it wants to.
Just a guess but I think I/R is best suited in warm ..... warm + dry climates from my understanding of the operation of a I/R detector.

JP check out page 11

http://www.heliosat3.de/e-learning/remote-sensing/Lec7.pdf

As I have stated before I am a fan of IR leak detectors and I hold the D-tek select in a high regard. I have not experienced good days and bad days with any of my selects (2) and it has been my experience that the leaks that JP photographed would make my selects scream unbelievably.
My biggest issue with the selects are in my opinion that low sensitivity is way too sensitive making it hard to pinpoint leaks in a saturated environment.

I am going to set up a test in a humid shower room to see if there is any merit to the idea that IR may become less efficient in high humidity.

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

Something else to keep in mind.

The first two leak photos that I posted were missed by not one, but TWO selects.

I had both of them in my hand as I walked right on by.

This isn't isolated to one instrument.

I find the humidity reference interesting, but, now that I think about it, irrelevant.

It is late winter in western PA. Although it has been a mild winter, it is cool and dry outside and warm and dry inside.

Not a factor, IMO. Maybe in August, but not March.

AirTechMech · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Something else to keep in mind.

The first two leak photos that I posted were missed by not one, but TWO selects.

I had both of them in my hand as I walked right on by.

This isn't isolated to one instrument.

I find the humidity reference interesting, but, now that I think about it, irrelevant.

It is late winter in western PA. Although it has been a mild winter, it is cool and dry outside and warm and dry inside.

Not a factor, IMO. Maybe in August, but not March.

You have my interests peaked and you also have me questioning myself about my experiences with my selects that I have and have had over the years. I was an early adopter of the selects but I have had many units over the years with my most current being 2010 and 2011 units, the most of my experience has been with a 2007 unit that I was always happy with. I also had the selects prior to 2007 that I was very unhappy with.
Without going into detail I do have several units from several manufacturers at my disposal that I will be testing and also doing video to support my findings despite the results.

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

AirTechMech said:
You have my interests peaked and you also have me questioning myself about my experiences with my selects that I have and have had over the years. I was an early adopter of the selects but I have had many units over the years with my most current being 2010 and 2011 units, the most of my experience has been with a 2007 unit.
Without going into detail I do have sever units from several manufacturers at my disposal that I will be testing and also doing video to support my findings despite the results.

It has been the cost of refrigerants rising and service contract issues that have me clamping down on leaks.

If you add gas, there is a leak. PERIOD.

If you don't find a leak then it is either because you do not know how to search for leaks or that you do not have an adequate detector.

I'm working on figuring out which it is with my guys.

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

As I said, I'm looking for input from the Inficon tech guys that I've seen on this site.

I looked at their user accounts and they aren't Pro members, so I've asked the Moderators to move this thread to Tools discussion where they can see it if they choose to log in.

Chris_Worthington · Mar 3, 2012

Thread relocated as requested.

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

Shazam. That was fast, thanks, Chris.

Chris_Worthington · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Shazam. That was fast, thanks, Chris.

Yes sir

AirTechMech · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Something else to keep in mind.

The first two leak photos that I posted were missed by not one, but TWO selects.

I had both of them in my hand as I walked right on by.

This isn't isolated to one instrument.

I find the humidity reference interesting, but, now that I think about it, irrelevant.

It is late winter in western PA. Although it has been a mild winter, it is cool and dry outside and warm and dry inside.

Not a factor, IMO. Maybe in August, but not March.

JP, the leaks you photographed are mind boggling to me as I have had leaks similar to those and my select would be alarming ~20-30' from the case.
If the select is not a reliable leak detector then I want to abort its its use but I have never run into the situation that you have. You have me really scratching my head. Its time for testing for sure.....

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

AirTechMech said:
JP, the leaks you photographed are mind boggling to me as I have had leaks similar to those and my select would be alarming ~20-30' from the case.
If the select is not a reliable leak detector then I want to abort its its use but I have never run into the situation that you have. You have me really scratching my head. Its time for testing for sure.....

Well, the detector is, what, 18 months old tops?

The sensor is original, but has shown no signs of trouble.

The filter was clean and less than 2 hours old.

Once I was in the case, it alerted on the leak just fine.

Peztoy · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Well, if you poke the probe in it, it will go off.

It doesn't alert on cured foam, though.

I can't say that the H-10 has sent me on a wild goose chase. Those that I have gone on with it have just been me, misinterpreting the instrument.

I've place my H10G near running city water and it picks up the chlorine.

Do you think the H10G works better because its always pluged into a 120 volt supply. A battery detector might not work as reliably as the battery gets weaker.

AirTechMech · Mar 3, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
Well, the detector is, what, 18 months old tops?

The sensor is original, but has shown no signs of trouble.

The filter was clean and less than 2 hours old.

Once I was in the case, it alerted on the leak just fine.

Oh I know your unit is one of the newer units this is why I am questioning myself. As I said I am a fan of the select but if I am wrong about this I want to know and adopt what is better if I am indeed wrong. I am also doing supermarket work and leak detection is a huge concern.

jpsmith1cm · Mar 3, 2012

Peztoy said:
I've place my H10G near running city water and it picks up the chlorine.

Do you think the H10G works better because its always pluged into a 120 volt supply. A battery detector might not work as reliably as the battery gets weaker.

I'm sorry for not being clear.

The H-10 that I'm comparing the D-tek to is the H-10PM battery operated model.

I believe that I've had a similar situation, but it could have been the actual leak.

I was looking for a big leak and picked up alerts in the bakery and produce department that I believed to be from sinks as the water was running when I was in there. I duplicated that later as well.

Turned out that, when I was in the bakery, the leak was about 15' above my head at a cracked liquid line 90.

itsiceman · Mar 4, 2012

AirTechMech said:
As I have stated before I am a fan of IR leak detectors and I hold the D-tek select in a high regard. I have not experienced good days and bad days with any of my selects (2) and it has been my experience that the leaks that JP photographed would make my selects scream unbelievably.
My biggest issue with the selects are in my opinion that low sensitivity is way too sensitive making it hard to pinpoint leaks in a saturated environment.

I am going to set up a test in a humid shower room to see if there is any merit to the idea that IR may become less efficient in high humidity.

I have been leaning more towards CO2 and O3 levels being more of a factor but humidity in the air would affect the sample size since the volume is constant and H2O is in the absorption spectrum.

H2O,CO2 and O3 look like they are all in the absorption spectrum that at least the D-Tek uses (the Fieldpiece/Twin Rivers unit do not list specifics on their filter)

Its on the last page of this pdf and a quick technical note on how they operate.

http://www.inficon.com/download/en/dtekselect.pdf

An analogy of my thinking on this is if with all these gasses you can't discriminate between something like H2O, O3, CO2 and 22 would be hearing one kid in a school cafeteria talking and you can pick up what he's saying just fine vs when the cafeteria is at its max capacity.
Are you really going to be able to detect at the greatest sensitivities in all IAQ we run into.
I don't do IAQ but think a supermarket in PA might have a few issues.

itsiceman · Mar 4, 2012

jpsmith1cm said:
I'm sorry for not being clear.

The H-10 that I'm comparing the D-tek to is the H-10PM battery operated model.

I believe that I've had a similar situation, but it could have been the actual leak.

I was looking for a big leak and picked up alerts in the bakery and produce department that I believed to be from sinks as the water was running when I was in there. I duplicated that later as well.

Turned out that, when I was in the bakery, the leak was about 15' above my head at a cracked liquid line 90.

Baking soda and yeast give CO2 when baking I read produce does as well.

D-tek vs H-10.

itsiceman

jpsmith1cm

itsiceman

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hvacrmedic

AirTechMech

jpsmith1cm

AirTechMech

jpsmith1cm

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Chris_Worthington

jpsmith1cm

Chris_Worthington

AirTechMech

jpsmith1cm

Peztoy

AirTechMech

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